Closing The Dust Cover?

[SJ]

I was RO of a rifle stage this weekend at an unaffiliated but generally USPSA-like match. One guy with an AR finishes, shows clear, locks back the bolt, and then closes the dust cover. It's pretty standard in the field, but at a match I wondered about being able to verify the status of the rifle at a glance, especially when there is no rifle rack and rifles are slung or hand-carried. The dust cover will open when the bolt goes forward, but... it just didn't feel right. Is this a common practice, or should I have asked the shooter to leave it open?

[EricW]

My vote is that if you can't see the bolt locked back, it's a loaded weapon. Period. If one should want to keep the chamber clean, he should case the rifle between stages.

[George]

I agree with EricW. I got read out at a High Power match long ago because I closed the cover to keep the dust clouds outa' my AR. Bag it, or live with it.

Regards,

[slowsure]

Do you lock back the slide of the pistol in the holser too? To me unload and show clear.... is clear.

[EricW]

Do you lock back the slide of the pistol in the holser too? To me unload and show clear.... is clear.

No, because the holster is a safety device that both keeps the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and prevents the gun from being fired.

If a rifle is to be carried in the open, the bolt should be retracted and the chamber should be visible. Otherwise, the weapon is cased. These are the rules of the road at the local ranges and frankly they're damned good ones. Sooner or later, if you shoot long enough, you'll run into somebody waving around a loaded gun at the range. It's scary, scary shit when it happens. Chambers open on all long guns is the only way to enforce any real form of safety.

Personally, I think chamber flags should be mandatory, but I am not King and probably for good reason.

[Neil Beverley]

Personally, I think chamber flags should be mandatory, but I am not King and probably for good reason.  EricW

Eric

You may be pleased to learn that the proposal for the 2004 rules for IPSC Shotgun and IPSC Rifle is that the use of chamber flags is to be mandatory. They're cheap and quick to fit, so minimal hardship.

On the other hand I'm aware that there will be some who would support their use as a recommendation but not as a mandatory rule. Indeed this was my own view initially but the more I looked at it the more I felt it wasn't a big deal and for some a recommended rule is a "never" rule.

Are there any strong feelings on this?

[lmccrock]

I have a yellow safety device which locks into an AR magwell. It holds the bolt back, fills the magwell, and allows the dust cover to be closed. Filling the magwell is good since that is another opening for dust to enter. I used it for highpower matches, although it was a local club.

So, would this device fulfill the IPSC requirement? Not a chamber flag, does not put anything into the chamber.

Lee

[Chriss Grube]

That is the style JP ships with their rifles. I think once we actually get a set of rules for rifle and shotgun a lot of the issues will be settled. Right now it is kind of scattered by club and area.

[mike45]

Neil,

I dont think anyone over here will object at all, cant really see why they would.

They are cheap and instantly identify the gun as clear. Would you need to take the gun to the line with it still in, and immediately replace it afterwards,

or would it be when you stick it in the rack.

Does the bolt close on the marker, or does it still stay open, and does the marker need to stay in when you bag the gun as we all seem to instintively do at some ranges.

cheers

[Steve Anderson]

I'm all for the flags.

I get a little hinky around all those 12 gauges and ars being carried around by people I don't know.

We wouldn't be allowed to set a slide forward pistol on a bag or wagon and tote it around, or just carry it in the hand all day...

SA

[ErikW]

I was chastised somewhere for closing the dust cover, despite leaving the charging handle all the way back. Somebody said the handle could be broken and the bolt could be closed.

I put a yellow plastic flag in through the magwell. It holds the bolt open, sticks out through the port, so you can see there's no mag in the gun and the bolt is open. Somebody said isn't wasn't NRA legal because it doesn't extend into the chamber.

[EricW]

Lest anyone think I'm on a religious quest over this issue, I'm really not. But after nearly being shot by morons on more than one occasion, I'm a little sensitized to the issue. Here's what Bushmaster offers as solutions to the problem. The $2 flag is what is most commonly used at the ranges I've been to. Two lousy bucks and the 5 seconds to install it seem pretty insignificant in comparison to the benefits it offers.

$2 Chamber Flag

Magwell Block with Flag

As far as the NRA legal part, I think that's irrelevant since the NRA refuses to acknowledge our sport's existence. So, unless you're shooting Highpower, what does it matter?

[ErikW]

The $2 chamber flag is the one to have if you want to shoot NRA Highpower, as I understand it.

I've said it over and over again: I'd love to see some better rules about handling long guns. Make sweeping somebody without a flag/block in the gun instantly DQable, sweeping with a flag/block DQable after a warning. Bagging/unbagging of long guns only at vehicle or stage gun rack. Muzzles up or down when transporting.

[Neil Beverley]

Hi All

Thanks for the comments, I get the impression we're all pretty much in favour so far.

I've heard the flags referred to as "Breech Safety Flags", "Breech Flags", "Chamber Flags" and also "Chamber Safe Flags" and I had to settle on a form of wording that would hopefully suit all. "Chamber flags" seemed to be the most commonly used expression. The actual new proposed rule reads:

5.1.2.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the shotgun (rifle) is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Section 2.4.1).

I'm happy that all of the devices that have been referred to herein will act to help render the chamber safe.

Prices start at around $1.25 so the cost isn't going to be an issue. I can see some competitors simply pocketing the devices and some ROs will pocket them on behalf of the competitors until the end of a stage.

One of the devices brought to my attention was a banana shaped piece of plastic (bright yellow) with a square flag on one end. The device is held in place in the chamber under it's own tension and the flag juts out to the side. So as well as obstructing the chamber it would also prevent the action from closing. I've seen other devices that fit in place with long bright ribbons attached. The devices that Lee and Eric refer to would be great as well.

Mike, While the rule says a flag or device must be used when the gun is not in use except when in a Safety Area (Section 2.4.1), the revised 5.1.2 says except when under the supervision of an RO. So if an RO says "go get your gun you're up next" and the flag is removed over at the gun rack then you're arguably still under the supervision of the RO. The level of supervision is dependant on the requirements at the time.

The new rules (for both Shotgun & Rifle) on Carry & Storage state that the action must be open but any device that prevents the action from fully closing must achieve "action open" status. However, everyone will feel more comfortable if they can see the action fully open as well as a chamber flag.

I haven't differentiated between in or out of a slip or case because I don't see a problem with leaving them fitted and then as the gun is removed from a case it immediately complies with 5.1.2.5 without having to mess around.

[Neil Beverley]

My post just missed the postings from the 2 Erics and I've already answered some of the points raised. I'll paste below the entire section from the rules for your thoughts. The rule 10.6.2 referred to deals with issues that may cause a match DQ to be issued.

5.1.2 Carry and storage - Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, the competitor’s shotgun must be unloaded and carried or stored in one of the following conditions. At the discretion of the Range Officer, failure to comply may incur a warning or may be subject to the provisions of Rule 10.6.2.

5.1.2.1 Slung from the shoulder, with the action open and with the shotgun reasonably vertical, or

5.1.2.2 Carried/shouldered with the shotgun reasonably vertical and with the action open. Match Directors may require this to be “vertically upwards” or “vertically downwards” providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner, or

5.1.2.3 Placed in racks, or otherwise placed, with the muzzle pointing in a direction as specified by a Range Officer and with the action open. Match Organisers should make available within easy access to all stages, sufficient gun racks for the numbers of competitors attending the match, or

5.1.2.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the shotgun is carried reasonably vertical).

5.1.2.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the shotgun is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Section 2.4.1).

5.1.2.6 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer, will the shotgun be loaded (see 10.5.13) or have empty detachable magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a Safety Area.

5.1.2.7 Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2 no ammunition of any kind is permitted on the gun, or in clips or loops fitted to the gun, or to a sling fitted to the gun except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer.

I will be interested in your comments.

[mike45]

I think that just about covers it

[lmccrock]

5.1.2.7 Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2 no ammunition of any kind is permitted on the gun, or in clips or loops fitted to the gun, or to a sling fitted to the gun except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer.

Neil, I am not sure about the wording here; looks like (for example) Sidesaddles cannot have rounds installed until LAMR. The non-affiliated match I go to has a low enough round count that a full magazine and a few from a Sidesaddle are enough, so many use a Sidesaddle. I guess I am not sure what "Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2" means in this context.

Sorry for the thread drift....

My main rifle competition tends to have rifles slung, bolts open, but no flags required. A closed dust cover will get you a good talking to. But that is indoors so dust is not an issue. More than once I have ducked when swept; it is not a good feeling. It would take more than one safety violation (chamber not empty and finger on trigger and pointed in wrong direction) to get shot, but I have seen rounds put into ceiling or floor of ranges from supposedly cleared guns. That is 2 out of 3, way too close. Codifying all the club rules is a good thing.

Lee

[Overkill]

Part of me thinks flags are a good idea..... But another part says they send the wrong message; the message that "every gun is NOT loaded". Sometimes I think it would be better to run a hot range. No excuses, no second changes. Impecable gun handling or you're gone.

That is Tactical...

[Neil Beverley]

Lee, We had to do some sole searching on the question of side saddles etc, within the the context of 5.1.2.7.

In answer to your query as to what it means "Within the provisions of Section 5.1.2" : it means that no ammo to be held in loops or clips on the gun while the gun is being carried around between stages or while left unattended.

The is a real concern about the extra time that it may take at a match to conform but at bigger matches there is no reason why the "stage hustler" can't supervise the loading of these loops and clips while the stage is being reset from the last competitor. This will speed things up.

But ultimately we put safety before expediency and I can assure you we explored some alternatives.

Please consider the situation with rounds on the gun and a trip to a safety area where no ammo is allowed, so now we have unsupervised shooters having to handle ammo on the gun perhaps just a couple of inches away from a loading port. And then when they've finished in the safety area should they be allowed to load rounds back on to the gun. Think about it. We set up safety areas so people can mess with their guns and these safety areas should include a safe direction or backstop. We insist on no ammo to be handled (in a safety area) for further safety, and then we allow a situation with side saddles where unsupervised, not in a safe area, anywhere on a range competitors can fiddle with ammo and gun and in very close proximity to where it all goes bang.

I know of one specific incident where a round fell out of a cartridge belt and landed in the action of a gun on a rack, a gun belonging to a different shooter.

What about the potential for rounds becoming dislodged from the clips while the gun is in a gun slip because it could just happen? So now we perhaps have a gun with the action open and loose rounds being mixed together in a slip or case. Can you imagine this at a handgun match? Un-holster, put gun in a case and then chuck in a few loose rounds just for good measure?

Regrettably it seems that many of us have witnessed incidents of poor gun handling particularly involving muzzle direction, your own comments support this. I'd rather be not swept at all but if it's going to happen I'd rather it be an unloaded gun than a loaded gun. (I'd rather be missed by a .45 than hit by a .22 )

I don't know about the rest of you but I've been surprised by some handgun shooters who are ultra safe with a handgun and who then change heads when they pick up a longarm. They fully support the concept of holsters being a safety device, they won't touch the gun except in a safety area and then no ammo, they case/un-case their guns in a safety area - good safe gun handling. And then some (and certainly not all) pick up a shotgun, or a rifle, and all their standard safety principles go down the toilet. Can anyone tell me why this happens? Perhaps it's because they're not like real guns?

Anyway, guys, I am sorry about this one, I know it'll be a bit of a pain sometimes but on balance it was safety thing versus a bit of extra time and who wants to save time so we can get shot sooner:huh:

Overkill,

Impecable gun handling

Oh I wish! Unfortunately even in the few comments we've seen in this topic it is clear that for some this simply doesn't happen.

So much of today's rule books is written to tackle incidents that have been known to happen and to try to be ready for it happening again. The first rule book I used was IPSC 7th Edition, September 1986. I still occasionally have a flick through the pages. Boy, have we added some stuff!

[Overkill]

Oh I wish! Unfortunately even in the few comments we've seen in this topic it is clear that for some this simply doesn't happen.

I'd submit that the reason it simply "doesn't happen" is because because we create conditions (cold range) where it does not have to happen.

It would be an interesting expeirment to found a club that would operate a always hot range. You'd definately have to do more to qualify members than the simple, 10-minute, new shooter orientations and holster qualifications that are currently done.

I've done training where they ran a cold range then at some point transitioned to a hot range and its always amazing how much more serrious and professional the atmosphere is when everyone is locked and loaded. It also greatly speeds the pace of range activities.

It just has always seemed to me that the best way to honor the "evey gun is loaded" rule was to have every gun loaded. I realize its probably a pipe dream but I think its a more noble dream than a plastic flag in every chamber and willy-nilly muzzle control.

[kurtm]

Overkill:

I have to agree! The school I used to run started from day one as a hot range. So does Gunsite! We never had one single problem.....everyone KNEW thier gun WAS loaded! Some of these people had never even fired a gun befor!, and yet no problem!

Anytime you have the sport use of a firearm, and that is it,s only purpose, you can end up with what Mass. Ayoob calls the "fluffy the pet gun" syndrom. If you don't think this is the case just go to any trap range and watch for a while! It seems some folks just get a mind set of " well it,s just my AR that I use for 3-gun" I would never use it to hurt any one! This for some reason morphs into " it,s just not dangerous, because I wouldn't use to harm anyone." I have seen some really top notch shooters fall into this. Their match guns almost become a toy to them, instead of the potentially leathal device it really is!

Will we ever see this instituted at a major match? No. Will we see it at the club level? No. It would bother the women and scare the horses, as Custer use to say. It seems that not everyone in sport shooting can abide by the "big four" and there fore you will see many more safety rules yet to come. Although I feel many of them are nigling little matters, I tend to agree with Neil, It has to be the same every where...even if it is so that the lowest 10% don,t have to think...at some level... about safety! After all , it,s all fun and games untill someone gets an eye put out! KURT

[randychaps]

I happen to agree with Overkill. The one thing we (US citizens) have lost over the years is the discipline of the gun. I consider myself a proud member of the American Gun Culture. The American Gun Culture implies a sense of responsibility--especially individual responsibility--for your actions and the consequences they bring. Unfortunately, we continue to litigate ourselves out of disciplined action and continue to make more rules that actually have other unintended consequences.

A range should always be considered a hot range, even if the guns are not loaded.

A gun should always be considered loaded, even if it isn't--handle accordingly.

Safe areas aren't. Just a place to get your gun on, uncased, or repaired. Practice your draws and reloads at home or at the range before the match (or have a place/stage set up to "warm up").

Simple enough.

The rules only try to compensate for past mistakes. I wonder what future mistakes we will make under a continually increasing burden of rules. The simpler the rules, the more likely they are to be followed.

We need to reinstill the discipline of the gun in the culture, not the blind obedience of a set of rules that lulls us all into a sense of complacency--that we are safe around guns.

In summary, I would vote for fewer, but simpler rules. Gun is always loaded. You sweep someone, you DQ. You sweep twice, you don't shoot in the sport for a year. Three strikes and you are out of the game forever. Play with your guns at home. I only want to shoot with people that know how to handle their firearms safely because of their gun disciplineand their inner sense of individual responsibility to protect themselves and others from harm.

Randy Chapman

Colonel, USAF (retired)

Former A-10 pilot (baddest rifleman on the planet--caliber 30mm--definitely MAJOR ++)

[Carlos]

Neil: thanks, that about covers it. A couple of thoughts on the implementation: please make sure that there is NO "fully locked back" requirement; this would effectively eliminate guns that lack the capacity to fully lock open - like the AK series rifles - from ever being in compliance. A chamber flag or a mag block that incorporates a flag (both should be allowed) is sufficient to be a visible indication to all that the weapon has been made safe after a COF/departure from safe area.

In the interim until (if) the flag rule is put in effect, there should be an informal policy on the dust cover issue; there are enough shooters who are veterans or active military for us to show leniency when a competitor closes the dust cover as trained. Apparently, the servicemen who protect our freedoms are trained to close the dust cover and they do it instinctively. Closing the dust cover should NOT result in a DQ. Rather, the RO should take corrective action and direct the shooter to show clear and keep the cover open.

[Neil Beverley]

Carlos,

We revised things slightly from the earlier wording and I've pasted below the final rifle wording that will be put to the IPSC World Assembly for a vote.

The significant changes are that we now allow the action to be locked open or closed onto the chamber flag. Making chamber flags mandatory has offered this as a sensible option and the subject of dust covers was discussed.

Any device that is clearly visible, and that acts as a chamber block directly, or any other device that prevents the action being fully closed, will conform in my book. It conforms with the "chamber safe" concept.

The wording is just about the same for SG and Rifle but for SG only I've deleted 5.2.1.7. This was at the request of a number of people including Mike V. and again with mandatory chamber flags we felt we were adequately covered.

Vince has quoted elsewhere the volume of work that has gone into these revised rules. The task has been that much more difficult because we've really strived for improved rules that will, where possible, serve all 3 disciplines. The process has resulted in some very interesting "discussions" and in the end I fully agree with Vince that this will prove to be a good set of rules and one that hopefully we can all hang our hats on.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage - Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, the competitor’s rifle (shotgun) must be unloaded and carried or stored in one of the following conditions. At the discretion of the Range Officer, failure to comply may incur a warning or may be subject to the provisions of Rule 10.5.1.

5.2.1.1 Slung from the shoulder with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag, or

5.2.1.2 Carried/shouldered with the rifle reasonably vertical. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Directors may require this to be “vertically upwards” or “vertically downwards” providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner, or

5.2.1.3 Placed in racks, or otherwise placed, with the muzzle pointing in a direction as specified by a Range Officer. The action must remain open or be closed onto the chamber flag. Match Organizers should make available, within easy access to all stages, sufficient gun racks for the numbers of competitors attending the match, or

5.2.1.4 Carried in a slip or case (it is preferred that the rifle is carried reasonably vertical).

5.2.1.5 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or device, that is clearly visible externally to the gun, at all times when the rifle is not in use (except whilst carrying out the activities permitted under Rule 2.4.1).

5.2.1.6 Under no circumstances, except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer, will the rifle (shotgun) be loaded (see Rule 10.5.13) or have empty detachable magazines fitted except that a competitor may practice the insertion and removal of empty detachable magazines while in a Safety Area.

5.2.1.7 Within the provisions of Rule 5.2.1 no ammunition of any kind is permitted on the gun, or in clips or loops fitted to the gun, or to a sling fitted to the gun except when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct instruction issued by a Range Officer.

[wsimpso1]

I just have to say "Thank You" for ending up with a set of rules that makes more sense than what I encountered on my first try at a three gun match.

As a one time employee of a gun/ammo maker, and as a long time High Power competitor, I do appreciate having some structure in place to enable us to BOTH ensure that the gun has been rendered empty AND allows us to be reassurred when we look at a gun. Avoiding dumb rules that assure neither one of these is sure disconcerting...

I showed up for my first three gun match in May 2004 with my L10 .45 and an AR15, intending to shoot the shotgun stages with the pistol. Being as I was, until recently, a High Power Shooter, I kitted up with my gun belt and day pack with all ammo, cased pistol, then uncased the rifle and inserted the chamber flag, slung it over my shoulder, only to have one person tell me that the uncsed rifle may not be allowed, and another informed me that I could get sent home, better put that back into the case... I was confused as could be. There was a bright yellow chamber flag sticking out of the ejection port - this rifle could not have been rendered more harmless AND be immediately confirmed as such. Well, I thought about just dumping my stuff into the trunk and never returning to a club that thought a cased rifle was safe while a chamber flagged one was so dangerous to send me away, but I decided to comply with the DUMB RULE, case the rifle and carried it all day in the case.

Now, any chamber flag, including a piece of heavy yellow rope will render the gun safe and able to be confirmed as such. Me, I do prefer the molded plastic flags. Thank you for recognizing our ability to make suitable choices, and eliminatig this silliness of requiring the case...

Now if we could get some reasonable gun handling...

For those of you who are shocked by the scene of High Power, we have managed to do it safely since 1873, even though you see uncased rifles carried about over shoulders, on top of shooting kits or on our matts. All guns are unloaded untill we are directed to load, and both the shooter and the scorer confirm empty rifle at the end of each stage. While we cross muzzles all of the time, the rifles are stationary and not being handled and nowadays are showing chamber flags. The rifles are not being handled directly during that time. Neither hands nor ammo approach the firing mechanisms until prep period begins, and then the range is treated as HOT. No one forward of the muzzles on the line, muzzles must be forward, etc. It is not as out of control as you might think...

Here is to smart rules...

Billski