different draw strokes

[j..]

hi guys

i am mil guy (though i'm beginning to shoot some IPSC).. i'm curios to the "different" draw strokes out there that would work in a duty type holster.. please enlighten me to different "schools" on the subject and the arguments for and against, when should the first shot come etc..

my current theory is that to have an as fast draw as possible the pistol should travel as directly as possible to it's final position.. with the possible exception of having it come up to the sight plane some 10-15 cm early which would permit picking up the front sight and eliminating some upward motion (outward motion is easier to stop without wobble).. this means for me that the pistol clears the holster (i'm using a duty type holster so it has to clear vertically) then goes towards the middle to join with the weak hand and in a straight line up/outwards until intersecting the sight plain some 10-15 cm from the it's final position from where it just travels outwards, the pistol is actually pivoting during the entire up/out movement to be level when it intersects the sight plane..

now i'm aware of some tactical trainers that teach to pivot as soon as clearing the holster the reason being that you could shoot from there (for me it's not much faster but a lot less precise), there are others who teach a draw stroke passing by the retention position (pistol held strong hand only, touching the pec, tilted outwards, for me this slows everything down enormously) and yet others that teach drawing to sight plane at once then pushing out (having the gun move in a lying L shape trajectory), firing first shot as soon as hitting sight plane (claiming serious time gains, i'm not able to replicate, i shoot just as fast but more precisely "my" way).. now i'm asking you guys because maybe the reason i'm not able to replicate their claimed advantages is because i'm doing it wrong.. or it just doesn't work for me.. or it's an inferior technique depending on application.. no matter how i do it i prefer knowing the how's and why's of other techniques

thanks

j

[DonT]

Welcome. I'm not the voice of experience here and I'm not going to say which way is right or wrong but if you want to train for IPSC shooting then that is not the same as training for tactical, LE, military, etc. It's like practicing football to play rugby. My first suggestion would be to get Matt Burkett's videos starting with volume I. This will show you the correct basics of gun handling, etc. for IPSC shooting.

Now this is the voice of experience> What you don't want to do is practice doing things the wrong way because it is comfortable and fast for you now and later on realize that you have to break bad habits and re-learn the proper way because that is the thing holding you back from moving up your classification.

That being said, I scoop my draw and it's fast, but I sometimes don't get as good of a grip on the gun as opposed to coming down on the gun. And that's one of the demons that I'm trying to work out now. One of my buddies that I shoot with comes down on his grip at draw and he is faster doing that than I am scooping. And he has a better grip on the gun. And that is one of the reasons he is a master class shooter and I am still c-class.

Good luck.

DonT

Edited December 8, 2007 by DonT

[j..]

Welcome. I'm not the voice of experience here and I'm not going to say which way is right or wrong but if you want to train for IPSC shooting then that is not the same as training for tactical, LE, military, etc. It's like practicing football to play rugby. My first suggestion would be to get Matt Burkett's videos starting with volume I. This will show you the correct basics of gun handling, etc. for IPSC shooting.

thanks even though i'm from a strictly mil background i do believe that the two aren't that far apart, there are things that aren't applicable to "tactical" shooting but a lot of things are, that's why i'm here i already have matt's DVD's, the lot of them actually, except the shotgun one and i find them very interesting indeed.. i'm more or less drawing as he does in the DVD's with adjustments for drawing from a thigh rig with retention systems (changes how you grip the pistol for one thing)..

Now this is the voice of experience> What you don't want to do is practice doing things the wrong way because it is comfortable and fast for you now and later on realize that you have to break bad habits and re-learn the proper way because that is the thing holding you back from moving up your classification.

exactly i am however not a novice shooter, just IPSC wise, and i'm only starting to shoot IPSC for the carry over into work so classification is secondary, skill however is not.. there most certainly are things i don't know, some might not be applicable but i believe in knowledge even if i don't use that specific technique because of whatever so i try to keep an open mind..

Good luck.

DonT

thanks

j

[Catfish]

The "school" that I belong to, as taught by Max and TT (AMU guys if you didn't know) is to come down onto the grip, rolling my hand into the beavertail, getting a grip and lifting the gun up and out of the holster, pivoting as you describe once it's out of the holster, bringing my hands together, almost like I'm clapping, and then 'riding the escalater' up, as if I'm trying to touch my chin and then pushing the gun out.

I find I get a better grip on the gun and aquire the front sight faster this way than scooping the gun.

[G-ManBart]

hi guys

i am mil guy (though i'm beginning to shoot some IPSC).. i'm curios to the "different" draw strokes out there that would work in a duty type holster.. please enlighten me to different "schools" on the subject and the arguments for and against, when should the first shot come etc..

my current theory is that to have an as fast draw as possible the pistol should travel as directly as possible to it's final position.. with the possible exception of having it come up to the sight plane some 10-15 cm early which would permit picking up the front sight and eliminating some upward motion (outward motion is easier to stop without wobble).. this means for me that the pistol clears the holster (i'm using a duty type holster so it has to clear vertically) then goes towards the middle to join with the weak hand and in a straight line up/outwards until intersecting the sight plain some 10-15 cm from the it's final position from where it just travels outwards, the pistol is actually pivoting during the entire up/out movement to be level when it intersects the sight plane..

now i'm aware of some tactical trainers that teach to pivot as soon as clearing the holster the reason being that you could shoot from there (for me it's not much faster but a lot less precise), there are others who teach a draw stroke passing by the retention position (pistol held strong hand only, touching the pec, tilted outwards, for me this slows everything down enormously) and yet others that teach drawing to sight plane at once then pushing out (having the gun move in a lying L shape trajectory), firing first shot as soon as hitting sight plane (claiming serious time gains, i'm not able to replicate, i shoot just as fast but more precisely "my" way).. now i'm asking you guys because maybe the reason i'm not able to replicate their claimed advantages is because i'm doing it wrong.. or it just doesn't work for me.. or it's an inferior technique depending on application.. no matter how i do it i prefer knowing the how's and why's of other techniques

thanks

j

There is a difference between getting the gun to the final position and getting the first shot off. The method you describe bringing the gun up and out at the same time, not reaching the sight plane until the last couple of inches might get the gun out there faster, but it's not going to get the first shot off faster for most people. If you bring the gun up to the sight plane, or close to it, you'll be able to index off the front sight the whole time the gun is going out towards it's final position. If you need to fire from at any time while the gun is being extended, you can and it will still be an aimed shot, it just won't be a traditional aimed shot as you're looking over the sights to some degree rather than through them. Since you're seeing the sights for a longer time as the gun is extended, you won't have to work nearly as hard to find them as you do when the sights pop into view in the last couple of inches outwards....which should make it consistently faster.

There's probably a reason why you're just as fast "your way"...it's what you're comfortable with and have practiced. To give an honest comparison, you'll have to work on the other method enough to give it a fair shake.

Honestly, people worrying about being fast out of a thigh rig always confuses me....the only normal reason for wearing a thigh rig is because you're wearing external body armor. If you're wearing external body armor, you're probably carrying a long gun. If you don't need the heavy body armor and aren't carrying a long gun, a belt holster is a much more effective choice. R,

[AWLAZS]

I teach all of my guys to reach down to the gun, snug up high on the back strap, get the support hand on the gun on the way up into of their line of sight and push out towards the target. You can use the gun the quickest this way

[j..]

There is a difference between getting the gun to the final position and getting the first shot off. The method you describe bringing the gun up and out at the same time, not reaching the sight plane until the last couple of inches might get the gun out there faster, but it's not going to get the first shot off faster for most people. If you bring the gun up to the sight plane, or close to it, you'll be able to index off the front sight the whole time the gun is going out towards it's final position. If you need to fire from at any time while the gun is being extended, you can and it will still be an aimed shot, it just won't be a traditional aimed shot as you're looking over the sights to some degree rather than through them. Since you're seeing the sights for a longer time as the gun is extended, you won't have to work nearly as hard to find them as you do when the sights pop into view in the last couple of inches outwards....which should make it consistently faster.

There's probably a reason why you're just as fast "your way"...it's what you're comfortable with and have practiced. To give an honest comparison, you'll have to work on the other method enough to give it a fair shake.

currently i'm dry firing a bit to get some skill level with bringing it up earlier, i'll see if i can get the overall speed up a bit who knows i might even arrive at my current bill drill goal of sub 2 s..

Honestly, people worrying about being fast out of a thigh rig always confuses me....the only normal reason for wearing a thigh rig is because you're wearing external body armor. If you're wearing external body armor, you're probably carrying a long gun. If you don't need the heavy body armor and aren't carrying a long gun, a belt holster is a much more effective choice. R,

well from my POV your logic is right but your conclusion is off wearing a thigh rig is indicative of wearing armor and/or belt kit and a long gun.. which means what? the two most probable scenarios to actually use that pistol is one hand occupied (climbing a ladder etc) or the long gun is down (transition to pistol), hence in one of two scenarios draw speed is very important

j

[Flexmoney]

From my understanding, many of the tactical guys are hard core about bringing the gun up, then out. This often comes from the "Modern Technique" and is taught with a 4 count stroke.

In the race gun world...we don't know what a 4 count stoke is, we just draw the gun.

You will see many top shooters gun out to extension along a diagonal (instead of the up and out inverted L). the thing is, those that are good at it....they have tens and tens of thousands of draws under their belt.

When they are pushing the speed...stopping the gun is an issue. They might throw a miss right over the shoulder of the target.

What if the target isn't standing there at 5ft. tall ?

I don't know that the up and out is slower (inverted L)...marginally, if at all. Being close time-wise, there are other benefits of the up and out. One might be that if you end up target focused, the gun is being presented along your line of sight and you can pick up on that. Another, would be retention and gun grab issues.

[dirtypool40]

....some tactical trainers that teach to pivot as soon as clearing the holster the reason being that you could shoot from there ....no matter how i do it i prefer knowing the how's and why's of other techniques

Howdy and welcome.

Just so we're on the same page, the "tacti-cool" trainers don't often know the "why's", they are stuck on 30yo "tactics" and techniques that are just antique, or they just read an article on what someone heard "operators" do and try to make you believe it. There's a lot of "do as I say, and don't ask why" which has never been my learning or teaching style.

This is all just my opinion, one I hope doesn't get me banned..... again.

The REAL top operators train with IPSC GM's for technique, and develope their own tactics. The simple reason is that the techniques work, are efficient, make sense and are not based on Walter Mitty, Mall Ninja fantasy of what Seagal or Van Damme did in some movie.

A lot of this has been covered in the posts above, but I'll hit some of the high points that are important to me, and things I focus on, both practicing and teaching.

Don't move your head, set it where you want it (in line with your aiming point) and leave it there. Your real "sight radius" runs from your eye to the target like a laser. Your job on the draw is to smoothly rock the sights up into that line.

Move BOTH HANDS at the front edge of the beep, AGGRESSIVELY. It takes training and practice, but get used to moving quickly and efficiently to a proper shooting grip. You should have your shooting grip and be moving the gun, BEFORE THE BEEP IS OVER. Left hand can do something sexy or just come to the center efficiently. It should be waiting on the gun, not the other way around.

<tacti-cool disclaimer> yes, I can shoot from retention or some other cool name like "speed rock", but I don't force that "pose" into my draw stroke, it adds time and stiffness. If you're right on me, I will zap you from speed rock. No, I don't think practicing a proper draw stroke will hurt my "retention" shooting. I'm not into posing or looking like Tom Cruise, I'd rather be smooth and efficient.

Learn the proper grip. This is hard to explain in writing and why so many shooters, especially the mall ninjas educated by those that learned from books and movies, get it so wrong so often. Long story short, come in from behind the shooting hand with your weak / left hand, and the left thumb makes a smooth arc into position. DO NOT pull back with the left hand, rather cam forward, almost as if you are pushing the fingers of the right hand off the gun. Take a class from someone who knows, and make sure you get the grip.

When your hands come together at roughly sternum height, the gun will naturally be a little nose high. Great. From here go directly at the target, smoothly place the front site on the target, and as it comes into view, the rear rocks up around it.

Take the safety off and begin trigger prep as the front site zeroes in on the aiming point.

Don't lock or pop the arms out, you want to stay athletic, as though I handed you a garden sprayer attached to a fire hose.

Have fun, ask questions, shoot.

dvc

es

Edited December 10, 2007 by dirtypool40

[G-ManBart]

Honestly, people worrying about being fast out of a thigh rig always confuses me....the only normal reason for wearing a thigh rig is because you're wearing external body armor. If you're wearing external body armor, you're probably carrying a long gun. If you don't need the heavy body armor and aren't carrying a long gun, a belt holster is a much more effective choice. R,

well from my POV your logic is right but your conclusion is off wearing a thigh rig is indicative of wearing armor and/or belt kit and a long gun.. which means what? the two most probable scenarios to actually use that pistol is one hand occupied (climbing a ladder etc) or the long gun is down (transition to pistol), hence in one of two scenarios draw speed is very important

j

I guess I can see that with one hand occupied or transition to pistol. I probably should have qualified my comments better. I'm not saying it's bad to be fast from a thigh rig at all. What concerns me is that I've frequently seen people wearing thigh rigs when they didn't need to (both when I was in the military and now in LE) because they're "cool". The same people are frequently the ones that are overly worried about being fast when they should be worried about having a solid, smooth, repeatable draw that lets them put the first round solidly on target the first time, every time. I'm not suggesting you're one of those folks...you probably wouldn't be here if you were