gingerbreadman Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Hey guys, i posted a thread a while back where i got a little warm in my loads for my 300 rem. ultra with a 180 grain hornady i was using 92 grains of 7828 and every other round my bolt would be sticky.. well i decided to change powders and i used h4831 short cut and i started out low and worked up as usuall untill i got to 86 grains and hit pressure (my bolt was sticky) the bullet was only doing 3100 fps (it should be 3300 before i get pressure signs) what is going on with my rifle guys??? i just cant get a load that shoots well at decent velocity and im getting frustrated....... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Have you ruled out all the items previously discussed? This would include the bullet contacting the lands, excessive headspace, tight case neck/chamber neck, uneven locking lugs as Patrick said, or case length too long. Since you said earlier that the 220gr loads were working okay, it would suggest the excessive headspace is not the real culprit, nor tight necks. Still, it would be well to check both. Uneven lug bearing may be obvious by inspecting the bolt and looking at any rub marks on the lugs. Are you seeing any marks on the case head from the ejector? Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 Quote: from Guy Neill on 3:06 am on Jan. 19, 2003 Have you ruled out all the items previously discussed? This would include the bullet contacting the lands, excessive headspace, tight case neck/chamber neck, uneven locking lugs as Patrick said, or case length too long. Since you said earlier that the 220gr loads were working okay, it would suggest the excessive headspace is not the real culprit, nor tight necks. Still, it would be well to check both. Uneven lug bearing may be obvious by inspecting the bolt and looking at any rub marks on the lugs. Are you seeing any marks on the case head from the ejector? Guy bullet touching the lands = no , i cheaked with the felt pen and its good, case length too long = no, i cheaked each case with my dial verniers as i always do and (according to specs) there all bang on..... excessive headspace and tight case neck i havent cheaked, im not sure how so ill go back to the other thread and take a peak uneven locking lugs ill go look at that right now, is there any other way to tell other than visually looking at them???? I am not seing any harsh marks on the case head from the ejecter, the bolt lifts up but gets stickey when i go to pull back..... This is a spontanious problem, it happenes id say 1 out of every 5-10 shots...... just to cross refrence my case length can someone post up the maximun case length for the 300 ultra mag..... ill get back to you on the visual cheak of the locking lugs -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Okay, you are saying that the initial lift on the bolt is not a problem? That is the point that is normally considered "sticky" - during the bolt lift. If the stickiness is when pulling back on the bolt, I would term that binding instead of sticking. Trim length on the 300 Ultra is listed as 2.840". That is 0.010" less than maximum. Most case necks will be about 0.012" to 0.014" - measured with a standard caliper - not as accurate as with a tubing mike, but comparable if done consistently. The bullet diameter plus twice the neck thickness compared to the chamber neck diameter should see the chamber neck still be larger by a few thousandths. Maximum cartridge neck diameter is given as 0.344" (which seems large as it would mean a case neck thickness of 0.018"). A binding bolt, however, is a different beast and can be a combination of the fit of the bolt in the bolt raceway and operator manipulation. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Just my .02 worth, have you run into this problem with other ammo or just this particular combination of components? I hate to reccomend shooting factory ammo to a fellow reloader but, you might give it a try to see if there is a problem with the mechanical system ( binding, rubbing, dirty )if it occurs with factory fodder its time to work on the gun. Sorry if I covered old ground. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 uneven locking lugs ill go look at that right now, is there any other way to tell other than visually looking at them???? -gbm- I looked at the bolt and as far as i can tell the 2 locking lugs appear to be contacting all the same, they both have equall amounts of wear marks on them..... by the way this is a remington model700 lss, i bought it 2.5 years ago brand new and it probly has a less than 150 rounds through it...... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from Guy Neill on 6:01 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 Okay, you are saying that the initial lift on the bolt is not a problem? That is the point that is normally considered "sticky" - during the bolt lift. If the stickiness is when pulling back on the bolt, I would term that binding instead of sticking. Trim length on the 300 Ultra is listed as 2.840". That is 0.010" less than maximum. Most case necks will be about 0.012" to 0.014" - measured with a standard caliper - not as accurate as with a tubing mike, but comparable if done consistently. The bullet diameter plus twice the neck thickness compared to the chamber neck diameter should see the chamber neck still be larger by a few thousandths. Maximum cartridge neck diameter is given as 0.344" (which seems large as it would mean a case neck thickness of 0.018". A binding bolt, however, is a different beast and can be a combination of the fit of the bolt in the bolt raceway and operator manipulation. Guy yes when the bolt jams it jams trying to pull the brass straight out, the bolt lift is never stickey........ Ill go to my reloading bench and do all the measurments you said there and report back to you..... -gbm- (Edited by gingerbreadman at 11:45 pm on Jan. 19, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from TBF on 6:40 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 Just my .02 worth, have you run into this problem with other ammo or just this particular combination of components? I hate to reccomend shooting factory ammo to a fellow reloader but, you might give it a try to see if there is a problem with the mechanical system ( binding, rubbing, dirty )if it occurs with factory fodder its time to work on the gun. Sorry if I covered old ground. Travis F. I live in canada and the cheapest 300 ultra factory loads iv found are $50 a box so thats out of the question, i have however shot plenty of 220 grain hornady and nosler bulelts at high speeds with NO problems like this, it only seems to be happining with the 180 grain bullets.... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from Guy Neill on 6:01 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 Trim length on the 300 Ultra is listed as 2.840". That is 0.010" less than maximum. Most case necks will be about 0.012" to 0.014" - measured with a standard caliper - not as accurate as with a tubing mike, but comparable if done consistently. The bullet diameter plus twice the neck thickness compared to the chamber neck diameter should see the chamber neck still be larger by a few thousandths. Maximum cartridge neck diameter is given as 0.344" (which seems large as it would mean a case neck thickness of 0.018". Guy Ok i did some emasurements for ya here... I measured the hornady 180 bullets just for the heck of it and they came out .308 of course...as did the 220 grains that shot fine...... the case neck thickness was .015" (sized and unsized) i was trimming to 2.84" i measured the neck diameter of a loaded round and it was .313 so it appears my cartridges are in proper spec yet i still have this problem..... So do you think its a pressure thing or more of a "gun" thing???? i hate to take my brand new gun to a gunsmith but if i have to i have to i guess...... what else can i do?? should i try another powder maybe????? -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Given that there is no excessive effort on initial lift of the bolt, and you have not seen any ejector marks on the case head, and have not reported primer flow or cratering, it would seem that the straight back binding of the bolt would not be an indication of pressure. It may be well to try another powder just to see how it acts, or go with more of the 220gr loads that have worked well. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 and have not reported primer flow or cratering, I look at some of the hotter loads and i do see a difference between them and some of the milder loads but i have scene a lot more cratering in other peoples rifles and this appears normal to me......I am a "newer" reloader and dont have the skills of "time" as you do but i do have a digital camera and can send you a pic of my primers if you wish...... just shoot me a email joshherman2@shaw.ca I hate to shoot the 220 grain loads as they are a hard kicker and the only spire point bullet i can find is nosler partition and in canada there about .80 cents a bullet..... but besides that if there is a problem with the gun id like to know why, this wouldnt be too cool if it happend after i shot that 600 pound grizzley in the ass..... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Factory loads $50 a box in canada? OUCH! All the more reason to roll your own. What I was getting at (and you may have already tried) is shooting another load that worked ok previously to rule out the possibility that your new load and another problem (possibly gun related) did not occur simultaineously.I apologize if I am covering old ground. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 You can send photoes to me at Guy.Neill@atk.com. That is my work email, so I will not see anything there until tomorrow. Priemrs do not tell the entire story, as it will vary with primer cups and guns. If the only difficulty is withdrawing the bolt, it suggests the gun or lubrication, or dirt and debris more than loads. Loads giving too much pressure should show signs such as hard to lift bolts, enlarged primer pockets or ejector marks on the casing. Any chance of cartridges in the magazine bearing against the bottom of the bolt to interfere with it moving? Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from TBF on 12:33 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 Factory loads $50 a box in canada? OUCH! All the more reason to roll your own. What I was getting at (and you may have already tried) is shooting another load that worked ok previously to rule out the possibility that your new load and another problem (possibly gun related) did not occur simultaineously.I apologize if I am covering old ground. Travis F. I havent had a problem with my 220 grains loads.. ill load up 20 rounds of 220 and fire them off just as a test to make sure its not a coinscidence..... ill get back to you on this... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from Guy Neill on 3:51 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 You can send photoes to me at Guy.Neill@atk.com. That is my work email, so I will not see anything there until tomorrow. Priemrs do not tell the entire story, as it will vary with primer cups and guns. If the only difficulty is withdrawing the bolt, it suggests the gun or lubrication, or dirt and debris more than loads. Loads giving too much pressure should show signs such as hard to lift bolts, enlarged primer pockets or ejector marks on the casing. Any chance of cartridges in the magazine bearing against the bottom of the bolt to interfere with it moving? Guy Ill scan and send a photo for you, I havent thought about the chances of the magizing interfering with the bolt, ill take a closer look at that... Ill clean the gun again but i doubt that is a problem, when you say lubrication what part of the gun should i lubricate???? and what lube should i use???? -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 You don't want oil dripping out of the action, but a light coat along the raceways the bolt lugs slide along while bolt is being retracted - as much as a corrosion protection as a lube for motion of the bolt. When the bolt binds, is it only when you first try to retract, or somewhere along the length? Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Quote: from Guy Neill on 9:55 pm on Jan. 20, 2003 When the bolt binds, is it only when you first try to retract, or somewhere along the length? Guy when i first try to retract -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 to fast a powder & to big a case. try h1000 or h870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I thought we covered all this already in another thread. Yu are working with the laws of physics here.Cut the powder back till there are no pressure signs and then run it over the chrono. If it does 3200+ with a 180, call it good and try to diagnois this during the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 I would say from what has gone on before that you may have, 1. A build up of fouling in the chamber, either powder or case material. Clean chamber with a strong copper solvent (SWEETS) be very careful that you do not leave the Sweets in for more than 10 minutes, then thoroughly remove all the sweets (use Methylated Spirits) 2. Heavy copper fouling in the bore. New Stainless Remington rifles take about 200rounds to settle in. The barrel when new will have a crocodile skin effect in the barrel, from the hammer forging. Nice shiny new silver barrels show this real good. Clean every five rounds with a strong copper solvent or JB bore paste. If you have not cleaned the barrel properly and removed 100% of the copper then you can get problems with excessive pressure due to the bullet being slowed by the fouling. I suspect this is of low likely hood. But clean the gun every five rounds anyway to keep it running in properly 3. Your chamber is pitted and the cases are being grabbed by a rough spot. This can be polished out if not too bad. Proper cleaning and oiling will prevent this. 4. Your cases are too soft and are sticking to the chamber. Unlikely. 5. Bite the bullet and buy a box of ammo. This will give you something to yell about to Remington. If factory ammo does it, you some come back to the manufacturer. You have $1000 rifle don't whine about $50 for some ammo. I think that the outside diameter of a loaded 300 calibre cartridge should be a little closer to .338" not .313 as you stated. Most cases have a neck thickness of 0.015", which means .308 + .030 = .338. Some cases can go as high as .341". Get someone with a decent micrometer to check your cases. Not one but at least 5. Buy some new brass and try them. Do everything that you have done to your old stuff and see if there is a difference. I would deffinetly try a slower powder if available. H1000, Retumbo, H50BMG and or 870 and any similarly slow powders. Are you using Federal 215Magnum Primers. All else fails get a competent gunsmith check the rifle and its chamber thoroughly. Good Luck (Edited by gm iprod at 1:24 am on Jan. 25, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 gingerbreadman gm iprod is "spot on" with everything he posted. Suggest you follow that line of reasoning. final suggestion is to take it back to the dealer where you got it and send it to Remington and let them fight with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 thanks boys, ill try and get some time to play with my rifles.....and report back to you.... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfm Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Buy a box of factory ammo. Shoot it. If there's anything wrong with the gun itself it will show up with SAAMI-spec loads. Then you at least know that the gun is functional with factory loads. You can go from there with your handloads. This has saved me untold frustration when dealing with a new-to-me rifle purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 I just loaded and shot 15 rounds of my usuall load with virgin brass and it acted perfectly with no signs of pressure, I am for now gonna say its a case of my brass was just getting old, i bet i had 10 to 15 shots out of each piece in that set..... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I once purchased a brand new Winchester Model 70 .338 Winmag that had a problem with bolt retraction (not lift) using factory loads (or any other). But I could see scratch marks down the side of every case. It was just some defective machining in the chamber that needed to be cleaned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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