Shooting Problem: Always hit Left

[Rendar]

I have been shooting guns for a few years now but other than just blasting paper I never really got serious untill recently.

Right now i feel im doing pretty good. Doing slow-fire at 15 yards I can keep a solid group of about 3inches. Only problem is no matter what gun im shooting, that nice 3 inch group is about 2-4 inches to the left of the bullseye im aiming at.

So this is my question. If im flinching I dont think i would have such a nice tight group at 15 yards. I know its not the sights cause I have the same problem on multiple guns. I used a nice high neutral grip, and as far as I can tell from dryfiring im not slapping or jerking the trigger.

So what could be the reason for why I have a near perfect target, just 2-4 inches perfectly left of center?

[G-ManBart]

Couple of things. First, have you ever taken a gun that was giving you that nice group 2-4" left, made the proper adjustment to the sights and then shot it to see where it hit?

Unless you're calling your shots (not blinking and able to tell exactly where the sights were when the gun went off) and that takes some time to develop, there's no real way to know if you're doing something like jerking the trigger or pushing the gun. My boss is a very experienced firearms instructor and an Expert level IDPA shooter and didn't believe he was blinking until they showed him video, so it's possible you're doing that and not seeing what happens right at the instant the gun goes off.

What you can do is to get a buddy to put some dummy rounds in your magazine and then shoot...when you hit a dummy you'll see exactly what you're doing, good or bad.

[JThompson]

Close your non dominant eye and try a group. Like this

You may have a cross eye dominant thing going on. If the groups cpme back to center with the eye closed you'll know.

Edited November 22, 2007 by JThompson

[spook]

Doing slow-fire at 15 yards I can keep a solid group[...] If im flinching I dont think i would have such a nice tight group at 15 yards.

So what could be the reason for why I have a near perfect target, just 2-4 inches perfectly left of center?

Groups are tight? Check!

Just drift the sights so you hit the middle and keep those groups tight!

If you hesitate, shoot some groups weak hand, strong hand and freestyle to see if they all end up in the same place (thanks Flex!)

[Rendar]

Well you see,

The reason I DONT think its sights is cause I have the same problem on about 4 different guns. I mostly shoot an H&K full USP 45. However I still have same problem with a nice tight group, but a few inches to left when I shoot my Kimber 1911, my friends glock, and his walther p99.

I figured if I this same problem with 4 guns, the problem is mostly likely me and not the sights right?

Close your non dominant eye and try a group. Like this

You may have a cross eye dominant thing going on. If the groups cpme back to center with the eye closed you'll know.

If I do have cross eye dominance thing what can i do? Cause isnt the point to be shooting with Both eyes open. So if I can only hit center with my left eye closed doesnt that mean im still doing it wrong?

Edited November 22, 2007 by Rendar

[spook]

I figured if I this same problem with 4 guns, the problem is mostly likely me and not the sights right?

If you move the sights, there is no more problem

Waht are you afraid of? You can always move them back.

That solution is a lot easier than figuring out "how-you-change-your-shooting-to-make-the-groups-move-to-the-right".

I have the same thing on my guns and I know a couple of very very good shooters (who placed top 16 at the World Shoot) who also shoot left.

Now if you weren't shooting good groups, that would be a whole nuther story.

My theory: You can either change the way you shoot to adapt to the gun, or just move the sights and start kicking ass.

[John Dunn]

Cause isnt the point to be shooting with Both eyes open.

No, the point is to get your hits, don't worry about arbitrary rules. Figure out you dominant eye (both eyes open, cover an object with you thumb, then close one eye and then the other. The dominant eye is the one where the thumb doesn't appear to move from where it was with both eyes open. With the dominant eye the same as your dominant hand..no worries, if you are cross eye dominant there are several different techniques (closing one eye, utilizing tape on one lens, etc.) there should be some good threads here if you do a search.

I also agree with adjusting the sights. My brother and I will shoot the same pistol to wildly different points of aim, but it is to consistant points of aim. If your grip, stance, shot calling improve to the point that you are missing right in the future..adjust the sights again.

Edited November 22, 2007 by John Dunn

[JThompson]

Well you see,

The reason I DONT think its sights is cause I have the same problem on about 4 different guns. I mostly shoot an H&K full USP 45. However I still have same problem with a nice tight group, but a few inches to left when I shoot my Kimber 1911, my friends glock, and his walther p99.

I figured if I this same problem with 4 guns, the problem is mostly likely me and not the sights right?

Close your non dominant eye and try a group. Like this

You may have a cross eye dominant thing going on. If the groups cpme back to center with the eye closed you'll know.

If I do have cross eye dominance thing what can i do? Cause isnt the point to be shooting with Both eyes open. So if I can only hit center with my left eye closed doesnt that mean im still doing it wrong?

The reason I wanted you to shoot a group with an eye closed was to narrow your problem down to one issue. Some people are a % stronger with one eye than the other and not truly dominant with one eye, but a % of both. There are several things you can do, including just moving the sights. It would be nice know for sure what the issue is first to make sure we address the proper issue. The consistent nature of you groups being left leads me to think it is some for of dominance issue. If you just move the sights over this may work fine, but could be an issue if you shoot around props where you only get a view with one eye. If it’s not the proper eye you will shoot to the right instead of dead on, having adjusted the sight for center in a cross eye situation. Spook obviously has the issue, so his advice is solid… but it’s not the only way to deal with such an issue, so shoot a group with the one eye closed and tell us what you have and then we can point you in the right direction, or you can just move the sight.

[jwb]

I had a friend that did the exact same thing. He shot a modified weaver and knew he always shot left, so he adjusted to the right and hit dead on every time. Our instructor had him try isocoles (sp?), because they figured it was because he dropped the one elbow, and he was all over the place. So they said just do whatever works for you. He shot nice small groups every time, but he had to adjust to the right. That may not be the right answer, but it worked for him and he is okay with that.

[Rendar]

I had a friend that did the exact same thing. He shot a modified weaver and knew he always shot left, so he adjusted to the right and hit dead on every time. Our instructor had him try isocoles (sp?), because they figured it was because he dropped the one elbow, and he was all over the place. So they said just do whatever works for you. He shot nice small groups every time, but he had to adjust to the right. That may not be the right answer, but it worked for him and he is okay with that.

I think my problem might be a combination of that and this whole eye dominance thing. I went from general training that more or less just weaver stance with point shooting, to know using all these "new" things like neutral grip, focusing only on the front sight, etc etc.

I tried the tests where you cover something in the distance with your thumb and close each eye and see which one matches the closest. One eye should usualy match to what you see with both eyes open, for me it was neither, I was more or less in the middle range with both eyes.

I think im something like 55/45 really.

Anyways im going to the range in about an hour and will try shooting a couple magazines with each eye closed and see how I do.

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

[Flexmoney]

Don't read into the nice tight groups. All that means is that you are doing the same thing consistently and that the gun is not broke.

Therefore, it is either something you are doing, or the sights are off.

Since you have the same problem with multiple guns...odds are that it is you.

[Flexmoney]

My theory: You can either change the way you shoot to adapt to the gun, or just move the sights and start kicking ass.

I agree with spook's theory, I differ in the path to take.

I'd rather fix the shooter, such that the shooter can use any gun...rather than fix the gun, such that it can only be used by one shooter.

Chances are that you have some other stuff going on that isn't optimal. As you progress in your skills, figure things out and correct them...you might find that the drifted sights are always in need of drifting. I'd rather keep them in the center and figure out how to shoot.

[Rendar]

Well Guys Heres the range report.

When shooting with just my right eye (I am right eye dominant) my groups where slightly left and slightly low.

When shooting with just my left eye open my groups were slightly right and slightly high.

However, not sure if its just a good day or cause ive been dry firing all week to the point of madness, but this time out on the range I was pretty much shooting center, still a 'tad" left but a huge improvement.

As much as I hate to say it, I'm pretty sure it was me. I did the whole dummy round thing and sure enough, on a few of em I flinched a little bit. I think i just need more time behind the gun with the correct techniques.

What im seeing is every so often, when taking up the slack in the trigger, i anticipate, even though I "know" im not ready to fire yet, without trying to do it i will dip the front end low and left. I guess the fact that I can actually "Notice" myself doing this is a good thing, and proves dry firing is helpful.

Thanks everyone for all the help and suggestions, ill keep you posted.

[JThompson]

GLad to hear you're making progress... keep putting time in, you'll get there.

[spook]

Chances are that you have some other stuff going on that isn't optimal. As you progress in your skills, figure things out and correct them...you might find that the drifted sights are always in need of drifting. I'd rather keep them in the center and figure out how to shoot.

I truly feel that if you see "having the sights in the center" as an indication of how well you shoot, you are holding yourself back. There are too many reasons the bullets won't go in the middle when the sights are in the middle that have little to do with human error. Just like there are many reasons to alter the gun from factory configuration in other ways.

[JThompson]

Chances are that you have some other stuff going on that isn't optimal. As you progress in your skills, figure things out and correct them...you might find that the drifted sights are always in need of drifting. I'd rather keep them in the center and figure out how to shoot.

I truly feel that if you see "having the sights in the center" as an indication of how well you shoot, you are holding yourself back. There are too many reasons the bullets won't go in the middle when the sights are in the middle that have little to do with human error. Just like there are many reasons to alter the gun from factory configuration in other ways.

My dot is sighted slightly high right... not much, but just a tad. When I'm pushing, it brings me close to zero.

[Flexmoney]

Perhaps. It is probably a short-term vs long-term issue...and, approaching a problem from different perspective and ways of thinking. To me, moving the sights is masking another issue.

I see many shooters that never address some fundamentals of their shooting. Often, they stop progressing at some point.

Others skip over all that good stuff and jump on the fun wagon...shooting an open gun with a red-dot, large mag capacity, and great trigger.

[spook]

Flex,

Just wondering:

How do you feel about shooters building up their grip with epoxy, rendering it useless to other shooters with different size hands?

Or shooters mounting a C-more to the side of their rifle?

Edited November 26, 2007 by spook

[LarryP]

Just a rookie here, but could it be some as simple as "Too Little Trigger Finger"?

[JThompson]

Put me on the "fun wagon!" Oh ya, I built up my grip too.

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

Just wondering:

How do you feel about shooters building up their grip with epoxy, rendering it useless to other shooters with different size hands?

Or shooters mounting a C-more to the side of their rifle?

Well...I'll tell ya. I feel we have a newly serious shooter. Instead of merely changing the 4 guns he has, he is going to the range and exploring various aspects of his shooting...and paying attention. His groups/POI had a "huge improvement". And, he is realizing a flinch (that we all have fromt time to time). He is exploring eye dominance. Basically, he is learning. I feel that learning is good.

Whatever works to facilitate the learning... Which can be different things, at different times, for different people.

[el pres]

I recently went through the ecxactly the same thing. I thought that

I was not blinking, my dryfire was dead on, and my groups were

great, but when I was shooting with any speed the shots all went

to the left. I thought I was seeing my sights until I double plugged,

and when I could see the muzzle flash(sparks) I could also see that

I was consistently overpressing the trigger moving the gun to the

left every time. (small 2" groups at 15 yds 2" to the left)

Double plug and go shoot a couple of hundred rounds into a berm

with no target and you will see what you are doing wrong. You will

then be able to adjust grip presure and trigger finger placement to

adjust (dont adjust the sights!)

Worked for me give it a try. I no longer have those shots where you

say, the sights were dead on but the bullet went somewhere else!!

[spook]

Flex,

Just wondering:

How do you feel about shooters building up their grip with epoxy, rendering it useless to other shooters with different size hands?

Or shooters mounting a C-more to the side of their rifle?

Basically, he is learning. I feel that learning is good.

Whatever works to facilitate the learning... Which can be different things, at different times, for different people.

I couldn't agree more