jmorris Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 They can’t just say a minimum of “Xoz”, because they allow any length pistol. So you could have a standard length dustcover on a commander length (lightened) slide and your ammo doesn’t even have to make PF (except in a full length pistol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Sure you can say x oz's in a slide. 11 oz for a 5", 10 oz for a comm. & 9oz for a officer's. Make it simple so people can cut their carry anyway they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 They could make rules like that but then how could they justify the “spirit” & “competition only” (non)rules. The Glock 34 has quite a large hole milled in the top of the slide to reduce its mass (read lighten it) to the weight of its shorter brother (the 17) and it is legal in ssp as well as esp. So, one could make the argument that if a pistol is “produced” in such a manner then it’s not “modified” to make it lighter. P81 IDPA rule book “Slide lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage.” SSP has a production rule of 2000 per year or a total of 20,000; however, no such rule exists in any other class. So make it however you want from the beginning (remember you can’t "remove" anything) and it’s not “lightened” it was just made from the start to weigh less. Have fun guys/gals just keep it above the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Rounding corners for carry should be legal. Any other external modifications might disqualify the gun and you can't put the metal back! Check with HQ before making any irreversable changes. Also, for SSP, such rounding may be legal for IDPA but would bump you out of USPSA & IPSC Production Division. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 no external modifications except for sights and griptape are allowed in ssp. Interesting point you brought up, "melting" could also be considered lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Found this while searching. Melting could be considered lightening, but it's not to gain a competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Found this while searching.Melting could be considered lightening, but it's not to gain a competitive advantage. If your talking about melting in a sight....why wouldn't it be considered a competitive advantage? Your taking your "stock" pistol and adding better sights therefore making it more competitive.... Now if your talking about melting all the corners or a carry treatment, then disregard and carry on lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 What about flutes along each side of the slide? DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Are these flutes legal? DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) Are these flutes legal? DaG Sorry, No. They would be considered slide lightening, which is verboten in all IDPA semi-auto divisions. Interesting look. kr Edited September 1, 2008 by freeidaho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Are these flutes legal? DaG Sorry, No. They would be considered slide lightening, which is verboten in all IDPA semi-auto divisions. Interesting look. kr So I can take weight off by Tri-Topping and be legal but these flutes which gave no advantage are illegal? I guess I just don't understand how I am gaining a "competitive advantage" by these flutes? DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 (edited) I guess I just don't understand how I am gaining a "competitive advantage" by these flutes?DaG IDPA was designed for stock type guns. You can get pretty gamey with slide serrations and still be with in the rules though. What you have done is lighten the slide. It doesn't matter if you just did it for looks or to actually make it lighter. There is a reason why a lot of us limited guys lighten our slide and IDPA doesn't want that. Short answer, its in the rule book not to do it....so don't. So I can take weight off by Tri-Topping and be legal but these flutes which gave no advantage are illegal? If you want to make it lighter....then have a tri top slide. Edited September 2, 2008 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 You need to try and understand, it's not always about a competitive advantage, it's the perception of an advantage that IDPA is trying to avoid. The rules aren't written for the few shooters who want to go out and push the envelope with their gun, they are written so that the vast majority, who show op with their Kimbers, Springfields and Colts, won't feel like their guns are uncompetitive. An Ed Brown Executive or Wilson CQB may be light years ahead of an out of box Kimber or Springfield in terms of fit, finish, accuracy and reliability, but to the average shooter they still look like a plain 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Actually, that is a GREAT point. I hadn't considered the "perception" point of view. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 actually...those SO's read the forums here also,and are po'ed that Merlin gets the $200.00 1911's.... i dont it's more of the slide cuts as described as it would be showing up at a state match with a full frame lenght shown in the pic... in idpa can you shoot long dust cover and bull barrel or does it have to be short dust cover and bushing barrell for esp No bull barrel in a 5" gun. With shorter guns yes. Long dust cover no. Sort of. You can only use a bull barrel if it is 4.2 inches or shorter. You cannot have a traditional commander length gun (4.25 inch barrel) with a bull barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Are these flutes legal? DaG Sorry, No. They would be considered slide lightening, which is verboten in all IDPA semi-auto divisions. Interesting look. kr The rulebook defines slide lightening as the removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage. A case could be made with that slide that there hasn't been enough material removed to gain an advantage and that it was done for cosmetic reasons. I'd don't think that slide would be that much lighter than one that had been flat topped and serrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 I really don't see what the big fuss is about. If you have only one gun and want to shoot a local IDPA match, I don't see why they won't let you shoot it with it. If you beat me because your slide is faster then I have some more work to do. If you say X oz for X length, your just adding more stuff for the chrono guy to have to measure and weigh. If you want a really light slide, shoot a commander length, tri top, with big cocking serrations. What I don't understand is I don't hear people complaining to much about not being able to lighten up their production guns with wild cuts only people wanting to shoot IDPA with their lightened limited guns. Look at my aviatar, yeah its light and fast but I'm not ticked off I can't shoot it in IDPA, I just grab another gun and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Are these flutes legal? DaG Sorry, No. They would be considered slide lightening, which is verboten in all IDPA semi-auto divisions. Interesting look. kr The rulebook defines slide lightening as the removal of portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage. A case could be made with that slide that there hasn't been enough material removed to gain an advantage and that it was done for cosmetic reasons. I'd don't think that slide would be that much lighter than one that had been flat topped and serrated. Thanks Mr. Rubberneck. It was never my intention to lighten the slide. It was done only for cosmetic reasons which was the way I interpreted the rulebook. Apparently, I interpreted wrong. Anyway, gave the slide to an engineer at work just for shits and giggles so he can measure the depth and length of cuts. He said he would do the math and figure how much was taken out. Steel1212, You say I lightened the slide but you say that you can get pretty gamey with serrations. What's the difference? How much do you think was taken out that would give me a advantage? I would think it would take at least 2oz of weight removal before you could see a difference. Not trying to start a flame war, just wondering.......... DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) Steel1212,You say I lightened the slide but you say that you can get pretty gamey with serrations. What's the difference? How much do you think was taken out that would give me a advantage? I would think it would take at least 2oz of weight removal before you could see a difference. Not trying to start a flame war, just wondering.......... DaG What I'm saying is cocking serrations are legal if you make them look like typical cocking serrations and don't have them the full length of the slide or something crazy. What you have is a lightened slide, it may be for looks or weight either way it wouldn't fly. One is legal one is not that is the difference. I never said it would give you an advantage, I said if that is the only gun you have then take it to a local IDPA match and shoot it, if they think it gives you an advantage and don't want you to shoot it then they need to practice more. You could even shoot for no score and just keep your score sheet and compare it when the scores come out. Also, I think your friend could measure till he is blue in the face, and it really wouldn't matter. You could compare a tri topped slide with wide serrations to your and yours would probabaly be heavier but yours would still be illegal at most matches I would think. Again, if you want to shoot it in IDPA just ask the MD, you'll still get "the look" but I get that with my stock 9mm eagle too. Its from the guys that I could beat with my airweight revo, the good shooters.....just shoot. Or you could send those pics to HQ and get a ruleing and carry that around with you to matches. If its good to go then great, just the matches I've been to it wouldn't fly. Now if you have paper in your range bag that says other wise....make'em eat it! Edited September 3, 2008 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Sorry Steel, I guess I didn't understand your meaning of "gamey with slide serrations". That's what I meant when I asked what the difference was. To me, the way I understood the rulebook, that slide lightening was removing portions of the slide to gain a competitive advantage. Potions of the slide would be your avatar. At what point does cosmetics become lightening with an advantage? It does not specify in the rulebook that you cannot flute the slide. It just seems that it is wide open to interprtation. Anybody know how to get in touch with Robert Ray? DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 At what point does cosmetics become lightening with an advantage? Exactly! The poor Chrono person has enough stuff to deal with to have to deside if the slide is lightened or just pretty. I think IDPA's idea was to keep it simple. I've seen some serrations that I thought where a little much but they didn't get stopped. I've long since gotten over asking WHY about this and that with IDPA rules. I just read the book, and go shoot and hope the SO read the same book I did. I've had my run in with "people" but 99.9% of IDPAers for me have been easy going and just enjoyed the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T Bacus Posted September 3, 2008 Share Posted September 3, 2008 Again, it's about perception. Fluted slides are not allowed because they look racey. Arguing whether or not it is an advantage is pointless, as long as an average shooter can see it, and perceive it to be an advantage, it's not going to be allowed. IDPA is a place for stock guns, or at least guns that look stock. Flat top serrated slides are produced by many companies, Colt, Kimber and Springfield all have production models with flat topped or serrated slides. Flat topped and serrated slides are perceived as normal, fluted slides are perceived as a racegun modification. Arguing that the end result (weight) is the same thing is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Cosmetic stuff should be allowed. Some chose grips, holsters, vests and yes, even guns, based on their personal preferences. This is another part of the rulebook that is open to interpretation... the intent of the slide alterations. Look here for examples of what "competition" slide lightening can look like gunsmith advertising lightening. To all who have stated this slide is illegal, I'd ask ... how do you know? Maybe it is, but I definitely don't see it as black and white. Remember, not all lightening is disallowed. I've seen fluting advertised with three benefits, lightening a bbl of otherwise similar dimensions, increasing the surface area for better cooling, and for looks. If you want to shoot this, I'd suggest you get a weight of your slide. Compare it to guns that are definitely sporting "lightnening cuts". If you are closer to stock weight then custom, then I think you have a pretty good arguement. Use that information to seek approval, from your local MD and or HQ. If I was Robert Ray (thankfully I'm not, that role has got to be thankless ), it would come down to how much that slide currently weighs ... There are two bottom lines here. Does it speed your slide up, and would it be percieved by other shooters as a competitive advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I was just curious if you contacted HQ yet and what the verdict was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaG Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Illegal. I did weigh the slide and it weighs 12.034 oz. Oh well, I wish I would have weighed it before the flutes. DaG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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