Please take a look and advise

[DBAR]

I shot my 1st 3 gun competition in the spring at the CMMG 3 gun competition. One of my major faults was my handgun shooting. Since then I've been practicing a lot. I've always liked the CZs, so I picked up a CZ 85 Combat. I am right handed, but left eye dominate. I've been improveing a lot, but I wanted to ask the experts. My friend happen to have a camera that took a lot of pictures quick, so I thought I could share them with you guys to see if there is something that you all may see me doing wrong.

The last thing I want to do, is practice bad habits.

Please take a look at the picure, and let me know what you guys think. Grip, arms, ect...???

Thanks in advance for your advice.

DBAR

Edited September 1, 2007 by DBAR

[JThompson]

First thing that jumped out at me was the lack of extention in the arms....

[DBAR]

I've heard that before, and I've been told by others that what I'm doing is fine.

What would extention in the arms do for me? Would it improve recoil control?

First thing that jumped out at me was the lack of extention in the arms....

[unclez]

Cool pictures.

Your right handed and shooting left handed?

[HSMITH]

If you have the hand strength and forearm strength to shoot with a bend in the arms like you have I would encourage you to stay just like that. People with a little less strength will need a little more extension.

With a dominant left eye I think you are on the right path shooting left handed. It is a better way if you are willing to put the work in to do it.

[JThompson]

I don't know Howard... the guy at the top of the forum has plenty of arm strength and was a fair shooter... His arms are out a lot more. I'm not saying they need to be locked, but some Bill drills might be in order to test it out. I haven't seen anyone shoot with that much bend. If it works for him, great, but he came asking and that's how it looks to me.

Here's another pretty good shooter showing how it's done.

Click

Edited September 1, 2007 by JThompson

[HSMITH]

Watch Jake shoot. Watch Benny Hill shoot. Watch Cheely shoot There are a LOT of really good shooters that don't use a lot of extension. I am working my arms in and my shooting is improving, transitions are faster and more accurate with a shorter lever. The trick becomes finding the point at which the gun starts driving you, and that is 100% based on your own strength IMO. I don't think Bill drills will help, bill drills are about splits and timing, this game is about movement and transitions. I shot Area 5 with 3 GM's on my squad, they went 1-2-3 in Limited, none of them shot a split below a .25 which further convinces me that splits are the least important part of gaining skill.

[JThompson]

Watch Jake shoot. Watch Benny Hill shoot. Watch Cheely shoot There are a LOT of really good shooters that don't use a lot of extension. I am working my arms in and my shooting is improving, transitions are faster and more accurate with a shorter lever. The trick becomes finding the point at which the gun starts driving you, and that is 100% based on your own strength IMO. I don't think Bill drills will help, bill drills are about splits and timing, this game is about movement and transitions. I shot Area 5 with 3 GM's on my squad, they went 1-2-3 in Limited, none of them shot a split below a .25 which further convinces me that splits are the least important part of gaining skill.

Okay, I'm not going to argue the point with you, but I have seen Matt shoot more than once and he is extended way beyond that... esp whe shooting limited, which is all I've seen him shoot.

Edited September 1, 2007 by JThompson

[Jake Di Vita]

The bend in my arms may not be as pronounced at the shooter on top, but it is close. Also, don't forget guys that I didn't just decide that was how I wanted to shoot. It took many many hours testing different arm positions before I decided this one suited my style of shooting and body type best.

[JThompson]

The bend in my arms may not be as pronounced at the shooter on top, but it is close. Also, don't forget guys that I didn't just decide that was how I wanted to shoot. It took many many hours testing different arm positions before I decided this one suited my style of shooting and body type best.

Agreed.

[DBAR]

It's taken me many hours of shooting to shoot as well as I have for the last few months. I'm looking to improve. I like the advice that you guys have given me, and I appreciate it very much. I do have rather long arms for my build. In fact when I was in high school, one of my coachs suggested boxing. He thought that I would of had a great advantage with my reach. I didn't take his advice, but I will take some of yours.

JThompson, thanks for that video link.

Thanks,

DBAR

The bend in my arms may not be as pronounced at the shooter on top, but it is close. Also, don't forget guys that I didn't just decide that was how I wanted to shoot. It took many many hours testing different arm positions before I decided this one suited my style of shooting and body type best.

Agreed.

Edited September 1, 2007 by DBAR

[Doublehaul]

Dbar, your frame looks very stressed and unconventional, which is fine, but since you are looking to resolve issues...

Since you are asking about pistol, eye dominance will mean less than with a long gun, but you can try a slight angle to put your dominant eye behind the sights more. My left eye is about 5% sharper than my right. There are plenty of folks that shoot shoot this way. (Larry Vickers shoots a rifle left handed, a pistol right handed and is left eye dominant.) I notice you are left handed so I will try to keep it oriented that way.

Lock your arms out in front of you, then relax just a little. Grip is the same... 100% strength, then relax it slightly. Point your thumbs at the target... directly down the long axis of the gun. Right thumb on the dustcover, left thumb on the safety.

You can do this, but you will have to shoot slowly... one round off the draw. 200 rds. You should achieve hits within three inches of where you want at five yards in less than 1.2 sec. When you can do this, try two rounds, then multiple targets with 2 each in less than 3.5 seconds. Then moving. Get an air soft to practice inside garage or back yard.

The pistol is going to have to be your life for a while. You need to practice 200 rds a session, three days a week, plus matches for a few months and concentrate on accuracy. Every shot. You are training your body to shoot. It will come... I promise. However, it will have a price... you need to make it your priority for a while. That's what it takes.

Find a class taught by one of the super squad, Burkett, Jarrett, Leatham, Sevigny, Avery. Someone like that. Read Brian's book and watch Avery and Burkett's videos.

I don't get to teach shooters as much as I would like but I have taught hundreds of people to fly-cast and fly-fish. The physical and mental concepts are remarkably similar. You must be open-minded and practice what you are taught. I cast a 9' 6 wt. 120 feet.

I was working with a shooter in IDPA, 23 yrs old, Air Force, who was mid-level Sharpshooter. He just made Master in SSP, missed ESP by 2 seconds and is close behind in CDP. He did all this in less than three months and you can too with some training and practice.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Doublehaul

[Mick]

The arms could be a deal if you're not able to control the gun but it appears you are.

I too shoot with both arms bent and allow my arms and shoulders to absorb recoil but I've done it for a LONG time. With your arms bent as such you are more fluid between targets for faster transitions especially if you allow your knees and waist to flow with you. This will be a big difference when moving where locked arms will bounce with your footsteps.

I teach Academy classes where the kids start out locked firmly with their arms which is OK for new shooters from the holster on one target. As they progress I get them to loosen up to add speed and movement. As they learn the recoil of the gun, in this case Glock 17s, they learn they do not need their locked arms to control recoil. One of the better shooters in USPSA, Blake Miquez has used a double bent arm technique to great success and is about as fast as anyone on multiple close range targets.

Just remember you have to control the recoil in your wrists, elbows, and some in the shoulders as your unlocked arms will allow the gun to recoil back at you but you will be much more flexible.

As far as shooting right handed with your dominant left eye, this shouldn't be a problem if you shoot enough. I teach with an older PPC shooter who is right handed and left eye dominant. No problems for that static type of shooting and it hasn't had much influence on PD qualifications but for IPSC it could.

I believe the founder of this site has used both eyes for shooting when his dominance changed.

When you get to SHTF stuff your body will do whatever is the strongest and well trained...

Edited September 4, 2007 by Mick

[benos]

You are your own best teacher. If Billy Bob shoots with such-and-such extension, and wins some matches, that shouldn't mean anything to you - until you try it for yourself. Experiment with every combination of arm extension and grip strength you can come up with - at various distances/target difficulty levels - until you know for sure what works best for you. Study and listen to the top shooters to get some good starting points, but from then on learn what works best for you by looking right at the sights and watching them as they track up and down on the target.

be

[Doublehaul]

Practice, Practice, Practice. It'll come to you...

"...like lightning out of a dark cloud..."

[DBAR]

Thank you everyone for your input. It's much appreciated. I have been doing a lot of research, and I've come to the conclusion that I'll practice many, many, more hours. I also hope to someday be able to take a class held by one of the mentioned pro's.

[moredes]

I'd suggest tucking your elbows a bit; they're "out", kinda like 'chicken winging'. If you tuck your elbows so the arms are more vertical, you could extend the arms more if you wanted to. I'm not advocating that--I shoot out of a modified Weaver with both arms bent a lot--I can't see the front sight if I don't pull the gun in enough. Damn geezer eyesight... But tucking the elbows will give you much better strength for no exertion.