gingerbreadman Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I was out shooting my .06 (winchester model 70) after i got it back from the gunsmith who fixed my trigger assembley after i attempted to do my own gunsmithing (only cost me $20) anyways i went to clean it tonight and just inside the muzzel of the gun i can see what looks to me like cooper fouling....... i have scrubbed and scrubbed with my brass brush and hoppes #9 but it doesnt come off, i have ran countless patches and used plenty of oil but it still doesnt come off..... what is this???? i have never heard about copper fouling untill i came to this board so my guns have never had treatment for this..... i hope i didnt ruin my guns....... is there a stronger cleaner i need???? or is it rust in there and im screwed..... if it means anything the gun shot 1 inch groups at 100 yards with every load i threw at it today....... please make this all better -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 Regular Hoppes #9 won't get copper fouling out. You need to get one of the stronger solvents; Hoppes Benchrest, Sweets 7.62 (very strong), Butch's Bore Shine. Also I tend to use a stiff nylon brush with these solvents. I usually use Sweets and if I use the same bronze brush for too long the bristles become weak. Because the Sweets attacks all the copper, in the barrel and in the bronze. Don't panic just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 If you look on the bottle of copper solvent (at least with what I use), you'll notice that it tells you not to use it with a bronze brush - because it dissolves the bronze. The dissolved bronze will then coat your bore and it will seem like your rifle won't come clean. The only good way to get copper out using copper solvent is with cotton patches and a jag alternating between wet and dry patches. The label on my cleaner also recommends to never let the cleaner sit in the bore for longer than 15 minutes. I'll also add that JB Bore paste is handy for stubborn copper deposits. It will also smooth out your bore a bit and make the copper much easier to get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 ok i ran and got some hoppes benchrest (thats all they have) i have been scrubing and scrubing with my bronze or brass brush and still nothing is coming clean here...... i will let it sit in there for some time and use the wet/dry patch method with my brass jag....... im worried this is something more than just cooper fouling.... none of my other guns look like this..... how do i tell the difference between rust and copper fouling????? -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 ok i let the hoppes benchrest sit in my barrel for 10 minutes and i did several cycles of wet/dry patches and still no results. the cooper tint to the barrel is still there...... i read the directions on the bottle and it says for really stubborn fouling to run a wet patch through and let it sit over night and then run several cycles of wet/dry patches through...... is this copper or rust???? i dont see any pitting or oxidizing but what gives???? -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 GBM. I believe you have severe copper fouling. Rust is ugly brown and your patches will come out rust brown. If your patches are coming out blue then you still have copper in the barrel. Copper fouling is orange and your patches come out blue / green. Use JB's, OxYoke Accuracy Restorer, Iosso Bore Cleaner or AutoSol. These are metal polishes to some degree. Gently move a snug patch through the bore many times with a coating of any of these products. Replace patch regularlry and recoat new patch with product. This will attack the copper in a different way from the Hoppes. High Tech Redneck has suggested what I consider to be the best, SWEETS. NEVER leave Sweets in the bore over night, it is insanely aggressive and will etch the bore. Use in well ventilated area. IT STINKS. Remove sweets as directed. It works better when the barrel has just been shot. The copper is soft and hot and the Sweets can really get stuck in. If your copper fouling persists (and I think it has reached that stage), clean the gun with sweets as per instructions and oil thoroughly, put the rifle away and leave for a couple of days then clean with JB or similar as per instructions. Then go back to the Sweets for the next try, and so on and so on. Keep swaping until clean. IF there is already corrosion in the barrel (and I would be real surprised if there was not) then you need to do the following. Take a 270 brush and wrap the brush in a fair amount of 0000 steel wool. Immerse the wool in oil and scrub the barrel gently, never let the brush exit the barrel. The wool is much softer than the barrel so will not make it worse. But it will attack the rust and copper quite severely. Never let the wool go dry and after no more than twenty passes swab the barrel clean and run 5 or 6 oily patches through the barrel to remove wool residue. Start again. This will get rid of most of anything in the barrel. If the barrel is pitted it won't make it worse. It may make it slightly smoother. Be very careful how you go and I hope the pitting is not to bad. If pitted, the rifle may still shoot quite well. Just remember to clean it every 5-10 rounds and make sure it is spotless before each session. I have seen many ex military rifles salvaged to dead dear at 200yards capable by this method. Some were so brown and fuzzy with rust most people just give them away. I have an old SMLE #4 Mk1* that still shoots 2moa or better with a barrel the guy said "here throw this POS in the bin and I will buy a new rifle". I told him to clean it up and give it to his teenage son to use on the range. He wouldn't have a bar of it. I spent 3 hours with the steel wool and oil and it came up fine. Still got surface pits, still copper fouls like a sod, still shoots 2" at 100y with Selliers & Bellot 178gr FMJ. I just clean itr every 20 shots and never get it too hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 GBM.I believe you have severe copper fouling. Rust is ugly brown and your patches will come out rust brown. If your patches are coming out blue then you still have copper in the barrel. Copper fouling is orange and your patches come out blue / green. Use JB's, OxYoke Accuracy Restorer, Iosso Bore Cleaner or AutoSol. These are metal polishes to some degree. Gently move a snug patch through the bore many times with a coating of any of these products. Replace patch regularlry and recoat new patch with product. This will attack the copper in a different way from the Hoppes. High Tech Redneck has suggested what I consider to be the best, SWEETS. NEVER leave Sweets in the bore over night, it is insanely aggressive and will etch the bore. Use in well ventilated area. IT STINKS. Remove sweets as directed. It works better when the barrel has just been shot. The copper is soft and hot and the Sweets can really get stuck in. If your copper fouling persists (and I think it has reached that stage), clean the gun with sweets as per instructions and oil thoroughly, put the rifle away and leave for a couple of days then clean with JB or similar as per instructions. Then go back to the Sweets for the next try, and so on and so on. Keep swaping until clean. IF there is already corrosion in the barrel (and I would be real surprised if there was not) then you need to do the following. Take a 270 brush and wrap the brush in a fair amount of 0000 steel wool. Immerse the wool in oil and scrub the barrel gently, never let the brush exit the barrel. The wool is much softer than the barrel so will not make it worse. But it will attack the rust and copper quite severely. Never let the wool go dry and after no more than twenty passes swab the barrel clean and run 5 or 6 oily patches through the barrel to remove wool residue. Start again. This will get rid of most of anything in the barrel. If the barrel is pitted it won't make it worse. It may make it slightly smoother. Be very careful how you go and I hope the pitting is not to bad. If pitted, the rifle may still shoot quite well. Just remember to clean it every 5-10 rounds and make sure it is spotless before each session. I have seen many ex military rifles salvaged to dead dear at 200yards capable by this method. Some were so brown and fuzzy with rust most people just give them away. I have an old SMLE #4 Mk1* that still shoots 2moa or better with a barrel the guy said "here throw this POS in the bin and I will buy a new rifle". I told him to clean it up and give it to his teenage son to use on the range. He wouldn't have a bar of it. I spent 3 hours with the steel wool and oil and it came up fine. Still got surface pits, still copper fouls like a sod, still shoots 2" at 100y with Selliers & Bellot 178gr FMJ. I just clean itr every 20 shots and never get it too hot. yes my patches are coming out blue/green....... this gun is second hand and i know for a fact there was no barrel break in like you guys talk about done to it..... i cant see any rust or pits or corrosion from either end but i presume its still possible for there to be some...... unfortunatly i live in a relatively small town and the gun shop shows this, I will have to order one of those cleaners from a catalogue mail order and im unsure what the local shipping laws are like on cleaners and solvents.... i was chatting to the gunsmith that fixed the trigger and he siad to bring it by one day and he will spray something in the barrel to clean the barrel up. i wonder if thats just my best rout to go here...... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 21, 2003 Author Share Posted March 21, 2003 i dont know if it matters, but i can only see the copper from the muzzel end and i need to use a flashlight to see it..... it doesnt coat the whole barrel it only seems to be on either side of the rifleing grooves...... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Step 1: Don't Panic Step 2: Get some JB Bore Paste or a similar product. Step 3: Clean your bore out with the paste Step 4: Try the copper remover again. Step 5: If patches still come out blue/green, return to step 3. This really is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. I went through the same worries with my .308. In the end, it all worked out. I ended up with a rifle with noticeably smoother bore that cleaned up in a jiffy. Keep in mind that as long as the rifle shoots acceptably, having a little copper in the bore is essentially irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Just be patient and alternate between copper remover and powder solvent. Eventually things will come clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 23, 2003 Author Share Posted March 23, 2003 hello, i went with the instructions on the bottle and let it sit over night after i ran a wet patch through... this morning it was nearly like glass...... it is probly 95% clean now and i do not see any rust or corrosion in the barrel...... is hopes benchrest one of the slower working copper solvents or was my fouling just that bad??? i still have a little ways to go but at least i know im making headway on it.... -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 23, 2003 Share Posted March 23, 2003 The Hoppes must be slower acting (which may not be all bad) since the stuff I use says not to leave it in longer than 15 minutes or you risk bore damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 The Hoppes must be slower acting (which may not be all bad) since the stuff I use says not to leave it in longer than 15 minutes or you risk bore damage. yes thats what i reckon..... i had a gunsmith at the gunshow this past weekend tell me the same...... i think the best plan is to not let it get this bad -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaman Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 help i really have RUST in my barrel!!!! i swabebbed it with a copper brush and gun oil to break it up, and ran patch after patch, and repeated multiple times, but its still kinda coming out reddish brown. there doesn't appear to have any damage other than the rust particles in there. HELP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 megaman, If it is rusted as heavily as you describe, you are gonna have to remove a tiny bit of metal to do the job here. The copper brush, and patches are just not gonna cut it. You need to use something abrasive like JB bore paste, or the steel wool method delineated earlier in this thread by gm iprod. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 just testing to see if this picture function works -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Timely conversation, Got to work this morning (Monday) and a man waiting at the door. He wanted to trade a Sako 75 Stainless on an H&K SL8, sounds fine to me. Exterior of Sako excellent (18months old) . So we get the SL8 out of the cupboard and while he is drooling over the black beast I carry on with the usual prechecks on the trade. Scope ,Mounts , Stock , Bolt , Barrel !! Holy shjt look at the state of that. I ask him how does it shoot. Answer, a little rough can't seem to keep it under 3" at 100. Hardly surprising, there was more copper in there than on Bouganville Island. I have never seen such a new rifle with so much fouling. After the deal is struck we get the final facts about his cleaning when I try to sell him the fries and drinks. He had only ever used Breakfree to oil the gun after each range session ( a mate of his in the Army gave him a bottle and said that's all you need) and had NEVER been shown how to clean a rifle properly. So $70 worth of Proshot rods, jags, brushes etc etc etc and some Sweets and a new bottle of oil, the SL8 stands a chance of survival. Over the next 10 hours, every half hour I had a good go at the rifle, I cleaned all but a light smear of copper at the muzzle out of that beast, I will finish tomoorow and hopefully test on Sunday. I can't believe he did not ask someone for help! I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a stupid question, unless it's never asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbreadman Posted March 24, 2003 Author Share Posted March 24, 2003 I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a stupid question, unless it's never asked. and thats why im greatfull for all of you that respond to my threads...... heres a little treat for ya -gbm- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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