IPSC Style Shotgun Matches

[Neil Beverley]

It would appear that there are some differences between IPSC flavour and US flavour shotgun matches. In conversation at the recent British Open SG match someone commented (I don't recall who) that the stage types, particularly those incorporating tight no-shoots, may not be popular with some shooters in the US.

As I understand it US matches are more open, more centred on speed and less centred on technical stages. IPSC matches are (arguably) more technical, have a greater accuracy requirement (Kelly commented that he found he had to aim more) and employ no-shoots more frequently. I apologise if these statements are inaccurate. I assure you they are not intended to be inflamatory, I'm simply fact finding.

So .................

Would IPSC style matches be welcome? Would they be supported?

I am mindful of the HUGE success of the recent Targeting Education IPSC Handgun match. The IPSC match was very well received and sat very happily alongside the USPSA match. I would like to see that success extended to Shotgun and Rifle matches as well.

Personally, it is my belief that all shooting should be good shooting and I guess provided that any such match is properly described then at least there shouldn't be much room for complaint.

What say you?

[bigbrowndog]

Neil, my feeling is that most shooters in the US do not fully recognize the accuracy potential, that is available to a shotgun.

I think that IPSC style matches would be received well, although maybe with some apprehension at first.

So many people in the US, (not just shooters) feel that with a shotgun "how can you miss". Our matches also seem to follow that premise, that Accuracy and Shotgun, are not terms to be used together. I learned firsthand in Greece, just how close a shotgun target can be placed to a no-shoot, to force the shooter into a decision making process, of shoot it from here with 6-8 inches of free space around the target, at the cost of 6-7 steps, or shoot it from there, AIM and hit the target with the edge of your pattern save 2-4 seconds.

Competitors in general like a challenge, and want to "adapt and overcome". Given your style of Practical Shotgunning, I feel we would embrace it and enjoy it, just as Kurt and I have. On that same note, had I known of the stricter than 180, policy at Sheild, i'd have practiced muzzle down over muzzle up, months before leaving.

BTW, I understand some good has come of my incident at Sheild?????

Trapr

Edited June 14, 2007 by bigbrowndog

[No.343]

I'm a rookie at the 3-gun game, but what you are describing sounds facinating. How does the round count compare between US and IPSC shotgun matches? I was under the impression that it was pretty similar in that aspect. I'm ready to try it.

[EricW]

Neil,

You should contact Pat Kelley. He runs a shotgun-only match every year in Ephrata (only one I know of). The problem isn't the rules or the course design, it's getting people interested in shooting a shotgun-only match.

We're allowed to own all three guns here and people here want shoot all three in a match. It's just the consumer psychology, I'm not saying it's good or bad. (I prefer one-gun matches, but I'm in the vast minority.)

3 gun matches of good repute generally sell out months in advance. One-gun matches of any variety (with the exception of nationals and a couple area matches) are tough to fill these days.

[kimel]

And according to Pat this year's match will be September 15. ~120 rounds of birdshot and 20 slugs (working from my crappy memory). One stage will be a 5 Stand type thing.

I'd love to try some IPSC shotgun matches though. It sounds like a lot of fun...and hey, it's all trigger time!

If we could ever move to a 2 day work week and a 7 day weekend we could do a LOT more shooting and have more matches. The problem here is that with only a limited number of available weekends we want to play with all our toys.

There is also the corollary to this in that many of us only get to practice on the weekends (live fire anyway) so we have to specialize and for most of us, that means pistol.

[Neil Beverley]

Neil, my feeling is that most shooters in the US do not fully recognize the accuracy potential, that is available to a shotgun.

I think that IPSC style matches would be received well, although maybe with some apprehension at first.

So many people in the US, (not just shooters) feel that with a shotgun "how can you miss". Our matches also seem to follow that premise, that Accuracy and Shotgun, are not terms to be used together. I learned firsthand in Greece, just how close a shotgun target can be placed to a no-shoot, to force the shooter into a decision making process, of shoot it from here with 6-8 inches of free space around the target, at the cost of 6-7 steps, or shoot it from there, AIM and hit the target with the edge of your pattern save 2-4 seconds.

Competitors in general like a challenge, and want to "adapt and overcome". Given your style of Practical Shotgunning, I feel we would embrace it and enjoy it, just as Kurt and I have. On that same note, had I known of the stricter than 180, policy at Sheild, i'd have practiced muzzle down over muzzle up, months before leaving.

BTW, I understand some good has come of my incident at Sheild?????

Trapr

Trapr

All noted. Thanks.

And yes, Vanessa, Ken, Mike and me had a little talk at the end of the match. Progress was definitely made.

[Neil Beverley]

Neil,

You should contact Pat Kelley. He runs a shotgun-only match every year in Ephrata (only one I know of). The problem isn't the rules or the course design, it's getting people interested in shooting a shotgun-only match.

We're allowed to own all three guns here and people here want shoot all three in a match. It's just the consumer psychology, I'm not saying it's good or bad. (I prefer one-gun matches, but I'm in the vast minority.)

3 gun matches of good repute generally sell out months in advance. One-gun matches of any variety (with the exception of nationals and a couple area matches) are tough to fill these days.

Hi Eric

I met Pat when he came over for the British Open about 3 years ago. I know he went home a happy guy and enjoyed our style of stages. I think he had some (pleasant) surprises when he came over.

There's nothing to stop our type of target positioning and concepts being included in the shotgun elements of 3-gun. But having said I'm working up towards running an IPSC World Championship Shotgun Match in 2010, but in addition I would love to see IPSC Level IV matches established for PanAmerica and Australasia.

I'll be designing and running the SG elements of the IPSC World 3-gun Tournament in Ecuador in 2009 so anyone attending that can expect something a bit different, I hope. I've only got 8 stages to play with though and I would have preferred 12 stages to test a more complete range of shotgunning.

[Neil Beverley]

I'm a rookie at the 3-gun game, but what you are describing sounds facinating. How does the round count compare between US and IPSC shotgun matches? I was under the impression that it was pretty similar in that aspect. I'm ready to try it.

Typically an IPSC Level III match will be 12-15 stages shot over 1 day, and usually between 140 - 200 rounds. The last 2 IPSC Level IV matches (European Championships) have both had 21 stages shot over 3 days. In Greece last year the match was 304 rounds and had some really excellent props.

We will probably have a higher incidence of Short Courses but will add something else into the stage to add interest. Ask the guys about the swing!

However, for the British Open the ratio was 4 Short, 6 Medium and 4 Long. One of the Medium courses was probably over 60 yards in travel distance for just 15 targets. This stage had 3 metal targets, 6 clays and 6 paper targets, mixed ammo as an option, buck and/or bird to suit.

We use a lot more no-shoots to test or even force accuracy and in IPSC generally we are seeing an increase in the use of buckshot stages that include paper targets. In truth we've been employing buckshot/paper-target stages for donkeys' years in the UK. We've had an established shotgun-only-match circuit going for years and years.

[EricW]

Here's a golden opportunity to test IPSC stage design in the U.S. on a shotgun-only match:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=49592&hl=

I think Pat pretty much has the match laid out, but he may be open to suggestions.

[kurtm]

The two types of matches are worlds apart! IPSC's average shotgun target is a 6" steel square, at much longer ranges than we are used to out to 30 yards or sometimes farther. These are shot targets, and many times are presented as partial targets with the rest of the target hidden behind a tire or other hard cover. Unlike clay targets they must fall over to score, so you need quite a few pellets on them. Unfortunatly the penalty targets just need a few pellets to fall ( 6-10 # 8 shot will do it) and they are set VERY close to the shoot targets, sometimes over lapping. These types of "no-shoot" arays can be encountered out to 20 yards 0_0 the two back plates are shoot targets and the front is a no-shoot. Next is slug and buck on classic targets out to 45 yards, and the best two pellets will score only. It is very easy to have a single pellet out of 9 hit the D zone and the rest miss at 45 yards. You realy need to know your pattern and the Buck you are using. Slugs on classics out to 50 yards and two must hit to score, so a "double tap" with slugs is a neccessary skill. The last comp in England saw a clay bird suspended by a string as a 25 yard slug target, so you can see how they force accuracy. Very tigh shooting positions are the norm, or VERY extended field corses that allow you to get closer to the far targets at the cost of ALOT of time are also the ususal. Right and left shoulder shooting is usaly seen in at least one stage per match if not more. Empty gun starts are also a large part of any IPSC match. On a sclae of 1-10 our matches would land around 6 in compairison. I love the IPSC shotgun matches, but I fear it would frustrate many of the U.S. shotgun shooters untill they got used to the format. Kurt Miller

Edited June 15, 2007 by kurtm

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt's scale of difficulty/technical is pretty much on the money. Our matches are definetly less difficult or technical. With any luck that will change, it better if we want to have a larger showing of shooters in future International/World matches.

Trapr

[No.343]

Ask the guys about the swing!

Ok guys, tell me about the swing.

[Barrettone]

What KurtM said...lotsa accuracy...

Edited June 15, 2007 by Barrettone

[Neil Smith]

Ask the guys about the swing!

Ok guys, tell me about the swing.

A picture tells more than a thousand words but at the beep you pulled the chair release lever then retrieve your option 2 loaded gun (magazine full empty chamber) from the rack built into the seat beside you then rack it & shoot the targets, easy !!!!!

Edited June 15, 2007 by Neil Smith

[kimel]

Oh that is evil! I like it!

Did recoil change the timing of the swing movement at all?

[Neil Smith]

Oh that is evil! I like it!

Did recoil change the timing of the swing movement at all?

Not that I noticed, because the chair speed was pretty fast & from the seat the shoot targets only seemed to be in view for a very short time before you got your sights filled by the large & very lightly set penaly targets, it was a fun stage to shoot.

[Neil Beverley]

There seemed to be a small increased rate and range of swing dependant on the weight of the shooter. Not a big issue and nobody complained but at a Level IV match I would expect to add compensatory weights to even things up.

Not a stage for malfunctions or reloads - and I witnessed both.

Edited to add that recoil doesn't make any noticeable difference.

I heard one competitor say that this simple 6 target Short Course was the best stage of the match, in his opinion.

Edited June 15, 2007 by Neil Beverley

[Neil Smith]

I heard one competitor say that this simple 6 target Short Course was the best stage of the match, in his opinion.

I heard similar coments when I along with Martin & Alex RO'd this stage on the Sunday, although lots of people got it wrong, the trick was to keep moving your muzzle against the swing motion of the chair & shooting the target that became "open" this made aiming easier but if you sat there & kept the muzzle still & took shots as you swung it was a lost cause !

N