More powder the first pass, less the second

[want2race]

SDB, Winchester brass and primers. Univ.Clays powder. Lyman digital scale.

First pass through powder and flare stage yields .2 gr more powder. If I dump and reset case for another pass through powder stage, the pre-flared brass will have a .2gr lighter powder charge. I spent an hour chasing "the right" powder weight until I figured this out.

I normally run the same case through the powder stage until the desired weight is acheived. Now, if I have to rerun a case through the 2nd stage I weigh it individually and add powder as needed.

One more thing, actually two. First time the case is flared and charged the flare is only about 270 degrees around. If I dump and run it again, not only do I get .2 gr less powder but the flare is 360. I have to run a bit more flare due to moly coated bullets.

I don't use case lube.

Second thing is a primer issue. They seat at a slight angle. I've determined this is due to the case leaning in the shell plate when primer seat pressure is applied. They work, but sometimes one side of the primer is right at flush while the other is below.

[RogerT]

Could the primer seating problem be caused by a "loose" shell plate? The centre bolt holding the shell plate migth need to e screwed in a bit?

I've noticed the same thing on my 550 (not as bad as your problem though) and I turn the case half a turn and press down the primer once more, that takes care of all slanted primers.

[want2race]

Shell plate bolt is tight, first thing I checked. I think the shell plate is either worn or just hold the brass too loose. I do the same thing, half turn and repress primer. Some cases are worse than others, if the primer goes in with more effort than normal I give it a half turn and repress. The ones that go in easy are usually fine.

[enoon]

Is this a new (to you) press or did these problems develop with use? Similarly, new batches of brass & primers? Dies?

Does the flare of the case become complete on the second pass because the case is been rotated and reflared? ...like the angled priming is "fixed" when the case is rotated 180 degrees and "reprimed". With both problems, are they (individually) at a consistent angle/position, say relative to the center of the shell plate? There are many, many possiblities. Eliminating variables (or identifying them) helps locate the cause.

It may seem that I am hinting at something, but I'm not. I've had similar happenings and resolved them with anything from cleaning/adjusting to finding worn/flawed equipment to changing components to coming back to it when the stars are in a new alignment (i.e., never able to figure out why it was happening - it just stopped happening).

[want2race]

Good points. I will mark a case so I can check the flare position, using the same position relative to the center of the shell plate.

New to me press. Sportsmans Warehouse just opened near me and they have 550's for $340. Darn tempting, just because it's too easy to pick up. I'll hold out for a 650 though.

Same dies (SDB), happens with all brass. I use once fired Winchester.

The flare issue also causes the bullet to load slightly off center. I can see the case more bulged on one side. The bullets are .401-.402 diameter. I may try a new shell plate.

[enoon]

Advise waiting on shell plate until tests are done. Off center bullet seating would be expected from off center or angled flaring. Also from uneven brass and/or less than perfect fit between the bullet and the seater. And, of course, (my) less than perfect placement of the bullet in the case. It may be that the shell plate is "bad" (all could be caused by the cut outs for the cases not being deep enough - toward the center of the plate - resulting in the case being too far from the center and thus out of alignment with the priming ram and the flaring die), but other things can be the cause. My prejudice is to do the diagnosis and have a plan rather than change parts and hope. The fewer things changed as the analysis is being done, the better the analysis will be.

I'm off to my chores and will look at this topic tomorrow. Hope someone will lead you to the brass ring in the mean time! Out of curiousity, how accurate is the ammo relative to factory or...?

[dillon]

I strongly suspect the off-center flaring is due to insufficient flaring. Adjust the size die down a bit further, so that a flared case mouth is at least .010" larger than a sized, unflared case. This will also correct the powder drop discrepency you are experiencing.

Regarding the canted primers, mark the position in the shellplate where it occurs, see if it occurs at only one cutout, or all of them. Also, what caliber are you loading? What brand(S) of brass does this occur in? Do you have the brass locator buttons installed? If yes, what number is stamped on them, as they could be the wrong ones for your caliber.

inquiring minds want to know

[want2race]

I will measure the amount of flare, but I'm near certain that it's more than .010 from unflared. The die is adjusted down far enough that if I cycle the press without any brass, the shell plate hits the powder funnel (part that does the flaring) and moves it up. Not enough to drop powder though.

I've only loaded Winchester brass, flare amount is consistant will all brass inspected (post flare stage).

Brass buttons installed, .40 caliber kit. The buttons matched the Dillon chart for the caliber. The primers aren't too canted, but enough to notice upon close inspection. Usually worse if the primer pocket is a bit tight (dirty?). On those, I spin the case 180 and repress the primer.

The reloaded amunition is at least as accurate as factory. I think it's better but I'm biased.

I will do some more R&D tonight as to which hole in the shell plate, or all of them, has primer tilt. Flare amount, and will try more flare. I think adding more flare will just flare one side more than the other still. Although the flare will be 360, it will be offset to one side still. I'll check it out though.

Also, I will inspect the shell plate closely.

ETA: If I take the case out after priming, noting it's relation to the shell plate, the high side of the primer is on the outside. The lowside (below flush) is on the inside (as it sits in the shellplate). I will double check, but this is what I had found previously. This is what lead me to believe (and watch it) lean inward when primer pressure is applied.

Edited May 24, 2007 by want2race

[dillon]

Regarding the angles flaring, try this: Loosen both bolts that go through the clamp around the powder die. With a fired case in station one and a sized case in station two, pull the handle down. Tighten first the vertical screw that anchors the clamp to the top of the toolhead, then tighten the horizontal bolt that tightens around the powder die. Doing this ensures that the powder die is vertical, and not tipped.

[want2race]

Will do. Thanks. I'll do this first.

[BritinUSA]

At the risk of stating the obvious, if you adjust the powder measure the adjustment won't take full effect until you have cycled the powder bar through. Every time I change my load I cycled it through once, dump the powder back into the hopper then manually cycle the bar five times into the scale pan and then weigh it and divide by 5.

Works every time.

Apologies if this is not the problem that you are having.

[want2race]

After making a powder change I cycle 6 cases through before weighing the charge.

I tried loosening the bolts and tightening it down with the lever down. No change. The inside (closest to shellplate bolt) is the side with next to no flare. The flare is over .010. I added a bit more, it helped get the flare near 360 but it is still very slight on one side and very flared on the other. I had a fellow shooter/reloader over tonight and he'll concur.

The bolt that holds the upside down L shaped bracket, on the right side opposite the other two bolts. It holds the powder measure on the die.

When I tighten that one down the whole powder measure leans to the left. I don't know if this is causing the issue or not.

I was told that I was too anal in regards to the tilted primer so we can forget that issue for now.

The offset flare happens at every shell station. The bullet is visably offset once fully assembled. There is a bulge on one side of the case, confirmed by a second set of eyes. If I can get the flare centered I think that issue will go away.

It was suggested to take advantage of Dillons' warranty and send it.

[dillon]

Pull the powder measure off the top of the die, see if there is a white ring recessed up inside the collar assembly, surrounding the steel drop tube.

If not, is there a visible gap there? There should be a white delrin sleeve up in there to keep the measure body aligned.

[want2race]

(says to self)

oooooooooh. I'll check for that tonight.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[enoon]

The guidance you are getting is from the pros and the diagnostic process is going quite well. Too many chef's spoil the broth; I'll not muddy the water. Follow through and I'm sure all will be fine.

[want2race]

I've got flare! The bolt that holds the clamp to the press has to be a little loose. If I tighten the bolt the die tilts left. I pull the handle with a case at station 1 and 2, leave handle down as instructed. Tighten the clamp bolt, then just snug the bolt that holds it to the press. This bolt just keeps the clamp from turning so I don't see why it can't be left a tad loose. No more one sided bulge after loading the bullet. It's even all the way around.

The threaded portion of the die has a little lateral movement but as the case comes into contact with it and flares it, it centers itself giving a full 360 degree flare. Also the powder charge is closer between preflared and non flared cases. I still have the light or heavy charge, by up to .2gr, but that could be due to inconsistant lever speed during testing. When I'm loading at full speed (not one at a time) my lever pressure and speed is about the same every stroke. I presume this will even out the powder charge a little more.

The white piece was in there.

Thanks for all the help. Now to chrono these so I can start cranking 'em out.

[alank2]

Hi,

Make sure you are as consistent as possible with actions on the press so the powder measure will also be consistent. Let me give an example, if you cycle the press with a case under the measure it will get what is in the powder bar. After that shellplate comes back down the powder bar fills up with new powder for the next charge. Any actions that happen after this point will cause the powder in the measure to pack more tightly, allowing more powder to be dumped. To test this, put a case under the measure, charge it, dump it very carefully without touching the press, charge it again, measure it. Then tap the press a bunch of times, cycle it a few times, then drop the charge that is in the measure and it will be heavier. This is because it has had all those extra vibrations to settle and pack the powder in more.

My technique on the 550 is this: Dump the charge, measure the next five cycling the press as I normally would and see what they measure. When adjusted properly, and I am ready to load my first round, I put the first round in station 1 and my test case (empty case with a spent primer it in station 2). Once I cycle it, I pull the test case and dump the powder and my first case will get the next drop which will not have been sitting there packing in.

I hope this makes sense...

I've also enclosed the technique I use to get repeatable settings from the powder measure; it saves me a ton of time setting it!

Good Luck,

Alan

Dillon_Powder_Bolt_Clock_Technique.pdf

[steel1212]

I was told that I was too anal in regards to the tilted primer so we can forget that issue for now.

YUP!

Dang it guys I've been screwing with his reloader in an effort to gain an advantage now all is lost lol....

[Bronson7]

Want2Race, I've experienced that very same thing. Here is what I've surmised: Because the first time you've run the case through, you're applying the bell, which kicks the powder bar all the way over. The second time you run it through, because the bell is already there, it does not kick the bar all the way over. This may be an imperceptible amount, but enough to give you a slight decrease in powder charge. The problem is you repeatedly use the same case to set up your powder drop. It's initially a bit more time consuming, but other than using the same case to just cycle powder through the measure, I use a freshly sized case for each change I make to the powder bar. I used to beat myself in the head wondering why my powder loads were greater while actually reloading after I set the measure. Ever since I've set the measure this way the problem stopped.

Bronson7