Area 1 2002

[ErikW]

My squad shot 6 stages Thursday and the other 6 Friday so we're done. Very smooth running match. Very hot weather. A few really good stages (1, 8) but mostly just way too much shooting through ports. Way too easy shots. Only targets I really needed good sight pictures for were 3 US Poppers @ 12 yards in front of no-shoots (stage 7?). Everything else was inside 10 yards, only a few stacked or partial hardcovered targets with a few no-shoots.

Chronoman clocked me at 172 power factor. Phew.

Yong Lee tore up Limited and looks like a sure thing unless Alex Chang busts out Saturday. (And he can.) Joe Bridgeman tore up Open. I'll just assume Travis was the big man in L10.

I think I was a contender for 2nd Limited OA/1st M until I had a magazine cause The Mother of All Death Jams this morning, after shooting a forgiveable Miss yesterday. I had big trouble with muzzle flip on my back-up gun, shooting high shots and taking make-ups. But it feels great not to crash and burn at a big match.

[BrianH]

You finished on Friday?  So you missed all the bull....

....can't wait till that starts rolling out.....(I hope to hear it got resolved)...

[Shooter Grrl]

Come on Brian - ya cain't just leave it at that!  Tell us what happened!

[BrianH]

I wanted to wait to see if it got resolved.....

The match was run (CRO'ed, etc.) by members of the Oregon section, primarily, so to affort themselves the ability to run the entire match, they shot it the week before.  Well, today Bruce Gary decided that they didn't shoot the match on the "published days" and DQ'ed all the RO's.  A tough thing to hear, being as how they sat there in 108 degree, nasty-ass weather to run us all through (for three straight days).  And you know what?  In spite of that, I've never experienced a friendlier, more cheerful and helpful group of RO's in 13 years of this.  

Pardon me if I have any facts wrong, but that's where it stood as of 2pm today....like I said, I hope this got resolved somehow.....there's no better way to kill volunteerism than something like that....

BTW: I was squadded with Travis....I think he damn near won the match shooting Lim. 10.

[Alon]

I would like to thank the shooters for their participation in the match and I got to see some great shooting.  It was a really cool experience and I hope to make more but next time it will only be to shoot.

(Edited by Alon at 9:19 pm on July 14, 2002)

[ErikW]

Holy shjt! That's a big deal. I didn't know the Area Director had the authority to DQ shooters. (BTW, for what, unsportsmanlike conduct?) Maybe he just suggested to the Match Director to "do the right thing."

Thanks again for ROing in the heat, under the sun.

To be fair to the "gamer" "who caused this injustice," I was there 6 PM Wednesday through 3 PM Friday and I went home with no hint anybody had already shot the match before it started. So what if the scores were posted, who would think to look for interim results before the match began? And some of us don't look at results until we're done shooting. And it wouldn't be obvious at anytime other than Thursday morning that the ROs had shot before us.

I think there are ways to let ROs compete in matches, a subject for another thread.

Meanwhile, I haven't seen any results but I heard one of my Richmond Hot Shots homeboys won the Open match. Right on!

[titandriver]

  Erik --- it's true, Steve Wong won Open. Pretty hotly contested down to 10th place. Yong Lee won Limited, Travis T won L-10, and Mike Boyd won Production.

 As for the RO's being disqualified from the match, apparently there is a rule (6.6.1, page 50, 14th edition) that says: "no competitor will compete for score on other than the scheduled date(s)". As I heard it, someone complained about the RO's shooting a week earlier and being included in the overall match. Whether prior approval was granted, I do not know. I can only imagine how I would have felt under the same circumstances, but I'm certain it would have been verbally expressed with a LOT more profanity than what I heard from the Area 1 RO's!

 A great bunch of very fair RO's who worked their asses off under extremely difficult conditions. My hat is off to you guys! Thanks!

[bgary]

Since I was in the middle of this (!), I'll fill in the gap with some facts.

--   I had a conversation with the Area-1 match director several months ago (not sure if it was April or May).  At that time, he asked whether or not the staff could shoot the match before the match dates.  I said "yes, but not for score."  I told him that most tournament matches did one of two things - either they had a separate "staff match" if they wanted to use full-time dedicated ROs, or they squadded people to RO on half-day work assignments, so they could shoot the match on the same dates as the rest of the competitors.  I left that conversation with the impression that the 2002 Area-1 match was going to have a separate "staff match".  

--  I never gave "prior approval" for shooting the previous weekend.  First of all, I have no control over when the ROs shoot - that is a match director decision.  Second of all, I don't have the authority to give someone "approval" to violate the rules... and, if I had known that the intent was to include the staff scores in the official results, I would have tried to solve the problem before it became a problem.  There was *not* much communication between Oregon and me in the weeks before the match.... that has proven to be a problem.

--  I first became aware that there *was* a problem on Saturday morning - the last day of the match - when several shooters approached me and told me that staff scores were included in the posted results, and that they (those shooters) intended to file a protest against the match, because 6.6.1 had been violated by the match staff.  I asked each of them to *not* file a protest until I had had a chance to look into it.  Notably, I had no clue before then, because (A) I never went to look at the scores on the wall (I already knew how badly my match was going - so much for the "gamer wanting to gain an advantage" theory - or, at least, if there was an advantage to be gained, it wasn't me) and (, I would not have recognized most of the staff names anyway.   I don't have the names of the Southern Oregon shooters memorized.  Sorry.

--  When I became aware of the problem, I left my squad (I was an ordinary, squadded shooter for the match) and flagged down the Match director.  I described the problem to him, and gave him advice - I told him that if someone did protest the match, he would have to put together an Arb committee to hear it, and an Arb would probably be upheld.  Not only did the staff shoot the match outside the "official" dates, but other match materials stated that "competitors" were not allowed to see the stages until the morning of the 11th - several days after the staff shot.  At that point, the MD decided to pull the RO scores from the match.

--  AFTER that conversation, I had another conversation with the MD, just to make sure he was fully informed.  I told him that I had NO AUTHORITY to make a decision in his match - as MD, he has the final decision on anything that happens.  I told him that, if he wanted, he could choose to leave the ROs in the official match results, and see what happened.  If a protest was filed, he'd have to deal with it.  And if the arb committee found that the rules were violated, there could be some interesting problems... like, losing "tournament" sanction, which would mean the match could not count as the Area championship - it would basically get "thrown out" for all 200 competitors.  That would be, in my opinion, a "bad thing".  At the end of *that* conversation, the MD said that he agreed it was against the rules, and would have the RO scores removed from the official results.

--  Nowhere in any of these conversations did I ever say, suggest, or recommend that the ROs be "DQd".  What I told the MD is that he could copy the EZWinScore match file into two files - in one file, remove all the staff, and have that be the "official" results.  In the other file, remove all the paying shooters, and have that be the "staff match results".  And, after the match, if he wanted to, they could combine the two back together, so that all the staff could see how they ranked against the competitors who shot during the match days.  This is a VERY common thing at tournament matches - notably, none of the staff at last year's Area-1 were included in the "official results", nor will any of the staff at the upcoming Nationals matches.

--  My goal throughout ALL of this was to get the problem solved with as little damage to the match, and as little damage to the reputation of the host club and section, as possible.  If the rules had been ignored, and the staff scores had been included in the official results, it not only would have been an "illegal match" (which would probably be embarrassing to the host club and staff), but it would have affected *ALL* of the shooters.

--  Rather than drag all this out in public, I let the MD handle it in whatever way he was comfortable with.  I have no idea what he told his staff... but judging from the number of times I got cussed out yesterday afternoon, and the number of hate-emails I've gotten today, my guess is that I'm being blamed for this.  No problem, I suppose it goes with the territory... but, for the record, I did NOT create this situation, I did NOT have authority to "DQ" anyone from this match, and I am NOT happy (or "proud") at the way things turned out.  But, I DO have an obligation to make sure the rules are followed and that the match is fair to the competitors, and I do NOT have the authority to give people permission to break them.  

The rule in question (6.6.1) is pretty clear cut.  It says "No competitor will compete for score on other than the scheduled date(s)."    That doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room.  If anyone had come up to me with a way to solve the problem that didn't violate the rules (rather than calling me names), I would have jumped at the chance to help.  But, realistically, the choices were to follow the rules, or not have it be the Area championship.  The MD had a very serious problem -  one that could have been avoided - and a very hard decision to make.  He has my profound respect for standing up to it.

The thing that I think sucks the worst about this (besides the obvious) is that it has robbed the match staff from the ability to feel *good* about what they accomplished.  They put together an outstanding match, ran 200+ shooters through some great stages with very professional officiating, and did something *good* that shooters will be talking about for years.  Rather than being proud of the great thing they were a part of creating, they're consumed with being pissed at me, over a situation I didn't create, didn't control, and didn't have the power to fix.  I *appreciate* your hard work, no matter what you think of me.

I could very easily have blown off the problem, let protests be filed, let it be arbitrated, and let the match go down in flames without any of it getting on me.   I think, if I had done that, it would have been a far *worse* outcome, not only for the match but for the reputation of the host.  I would have come out smelling like a rose, though.  Rather than ducking it, I jumped in the middle of it and tried to find the solution that yielded the least possible harm - I am convinced that there was no way to get out of it with NO harm.  

I feel absolutely sick about how this turned out.  I have worked a lot of big matches, and know how much the staff put into this.  But I also know that staff scores NEVER count in the official results at big matches, unless the staff shot on the same days as the rest of the shooters.... and sometimes, not even then.  It's not something I made up out of thin air, and it is NOT the way I wanted things to turn out... but it is the way things are.... and I'd be happy to go into *why* they are that way, if anyone cares, but that is a whole separate conversation (notably, the rule about shooting on the scheduled date(s) has been around for a long time.  It was rule 9.24 in the "blue book" which came out in 1995, and I'm pretty sure it was in earlier books.  This is NOT a new issue)

For those who [continue to] want to call me names and cast aspersions on my character, you have that right, but at the same time, I'd ask you:  what exactly do you think I could have done differently?  How could I have helped your match director find a solution that solved the problem without violating the rules?  Or, how do you think the situation could have been handled so that it resulted in *less* damage to the Area-1 match you worked so hard on, or the reputation of the host section and hard-working staff?

Bruce Gary / USPSA Area-1

bruce.gary@verizon.net

[ong45]

The match was a lot of fun oddly though there were a lot of low roundcount hoser stages, definitely something different,a limited friendly match if i ever saw one. No big heavyweights in open so top 5 had i think 2 m's and 2 A shooters.

As to the R.O. scores controversy, this seems to me like a case of the staff getting bad info . I think bruce gary did the right thing and bravely took the heat. We hosted area one 2 years in a row in reno a few years back and both years NO staff score was allowed with the main match ,we just figured it was our turn to do it and you gotta sacrifice when it's your turn.A shame all around since the staff was awesome and did a great job.

James Ong

[Alon]

Mr. Gary,

I have edited my previous post and I offer you my apologies.  I was obviously mis-informed of the situation and I failed to come to you directly to get the answers.  It will not happen again.  Again, my apologies.

[BrianH]

--  Rather than drag all this out in public, I let the MD handle it in whatever way he was comfortable with.  I have no idea what he told his staff... but judging from the number of times I got cussed out yesterday afternoon, and the number of hate-emails I've gotten today, my guess is that I'm being blamed for this. --

From where I was standing, this "appears" to be the case..... 

[Ebraketurn]

it's a shame that bgary takes the heat when he clearly did the right thing.

i heard that travis tomasie won the match shooting limited-10.....is this true? i watched him on a speed shoot at area 4 a few years back...when the RO checked the timer he had done a .68 reload

[TDean]

Absolutely it's possible...actually probable...

[BrianH]

I'd bet on it.....he didn't blow a SINGLE thing!!!

SMOOOOOTHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[TravisT]

I would just like to say that this situation confirms what I already knew about Bruce Gary: he is one of the greatest, most generous, and giving men you’ll ever hope to meet. He stands with the likes of Rob Boudrie, Floyd Shoemaker et all, who truly give more than they receive. These men are the true heroes of the sport; the foundation if you will.

As shooters we need to do everything possible to make people like this feel good about their contributions, because without them, we are truly SOL. Please, if you happened to "discuss" the situation with Bruce, send him an apology or note of thanks.

Bruce, I’m sorry that when you finally get the chance to "just shoot", you have to go through this. I guess that’s why you get paid the big bucks (yeah right ). Seriously though, I appreciate the sacrifice you made there, and I hope that others do as well. Pick up your new puppy and forget all of this.

I’m with BrianH(good shooting with you!!); the RO’s at this match did an absolutely fantastic job, and where one of the finest officiating ensembles I’ve ever had the pleasure of experiencing. Thanks to them, the unbearable heat became tolerable. I would like to see their results posted as Bruce suggested, and recognized by the USPSA. I certainly hope they decide to officiate again, because I would rank them as GrandMaster Range Officers.

Alon - Thanks for doing such an outstanding job, and congrats on your great finish!

Travis Tomasie

L-1973

[Alon]

I just wanted to say that I have emailed Mr. Gary and apologized, and also publicly.  We (the RO's) were either misinformed, or ignorant, of this rule and it's ramifications.  I will be discussing all of this with my local RO's who this affected and straighten some things out.  

I'm glad you all had fun at the match and it was a genuine pleasure to serve you.  I don't recall one shooter who refused to lend a hand with taping or whatever else was asked.  There wasn't any gripping about the heat.  Again, thanks for coming and congrats to the winners.

 

[bgary]

Geez!  Thanks for the kind words, both to those who have posted here, and those who emailed me off-list.  I appreciate it.  And, apologies are completely unneccessary.... I've worked enough matches to know *exactly* how much work the staff put in, and how bad this thing sucked, from any angle you look at it.... so... well, I totally understand.

I think the bottom line for this thing is that it sucked for everyone involved.  Some "lost", but no one "won"... and, ultimately, the blame *does* belong with me, because I am responsible for the Area-1 match and should have done more over the last couple of months to make sure things like this couldn't happen.  For that, *I* apologize... This was the first Area-1 match where I *didn't* have frequent, face-to-face communication with the match staff, and I learned a lot about the value of good information.  I truly regret that I had to learn it at the expense of others.

None of this should take away from the positively  *stellar* job that the Area-1 2002 match staff did.  They put together great stages, ran them smoothly and professionally, and generally set a new standard of excellence.  Everyone I've talked to has gushed about how smoothly everything ran, how efficient the ROs were, etc, etc.  We should *all* be sending "attaboys" to them, and thanking them for their hard work and accomplishments.

Bruce Gary / USPSA Area-1

bruce.gary@verizon.net

[TDean]

---

Quote: from Erik Warren on 11:49 pm on July 12, 2002

...... Only targets I really needed good sight pictures for were 3 US Poppers @ 12 yards in front of no-shoots (stage 7?). Everything else was inside 10 yards....,

---

Wheeww-hewww!! That sounds like my kinda match.....point-shooting at its finest!  

[BrianH]

On another note:

Congratulations, Travis!  Just saw the scores.

Beautiful shooting; doing it Lim. 10 makes it better, I'm sure....You deserve everything you're not getting...and more....

[bgary]

The results of the 2002 Area-1 Championship match, hosted by the Oregon Section and the Southern Oregon Practical Shooters, have been posted on the USPSA website.    My heartfelt congratulations and appreciation go out to Ed Boening, Brian and Martie McCormick, and all those who worked so hard to make this match happen.

As you all know, a situation came to light on the last day of the match, which generated some controversy.    Late on the last day of the match, after much discussion, a decision was made to pull the match staff out of the official results.

Needless to say, this was not a popular decision, and both the timing and outcome feel very unfair to the staff who put in so much time and effort.  As a result, I have asked for - and gotten - permission from USPSA to post TWO sets of match results: the "official" match results, and a second set which includes the scores of the match staff.  To my knowledge, this is the first time that the USPSA website has allowed the display of combined results like this...

If you happen to look at the combined results, note that I have put all the staffers names in ALL CAPS so they are easy to find.  When you see these people around, be sure to let them know how much you enjoyed the match, and how much you appreciate their effort... they put together a good one.

Bruce Gary / USPSA Area-1

bruce.gary@verizon.net

[ErikW]

Results are up:

http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/match_index.c..._1_Championship

I am very pissed off. That death jam on stage 4 dropped me from 3rd to 12th.

I can't even be happy with a consolation stage win because Travis was faster in another division with a reload.

[Ebraketurn]

travis tomasie has VALIDATED the limited 10 division, by winning 1st overall at an Area Championship. as an older L 10 shooter i no longer feel as though my category is a side match. what is more valid than beating long mags and scopes?

too bad the RO thing will overshadow his victory

[TDean]

Ya,...but he can't remain unbeaten forever...

Some new buck'll come along and show TT how'da REALLLLY shoot!  

Damn fine job man!...again....

(TT. when are you gonna come out with a tape?...seriously.)

E., the "RO thing" will NOT overshadow anything.  Justice was served.

[TravisT]

T- LOL! Thank you man! That’s funny that you’d mention a tape, because I've heard that a few times this week. But I wonder if my mom and dad would be the only ones who would watch it

Brian- Thanks a million for your kind words and acknowledgment!! It was really cool shooting with you, and now reading your perspective of the match. Thanks again!

Erik- Sorry about your monster jam, but that was some great shooting. Congrats on getting thru a Major without a crash & burn.

E.- Thank you, that's so cool to hear! I feel though that Robbie was the one to validate the division. I’m just some dork who really digs the challenge. But you hit the bullseye; it ain't no sidematch!

Thank you gentlemen,

Travis

[ErikW]

Where were all the big name GMs? Travis was the only true national-caliber big dog, the others were local GMs, with all due respect. Was it just too far for the southern Californians and Arizonans? No major airport near? Too hot?

Please don't say it's the lack of prize table. I just can't believe the big dogs are petty mercenaries who will spend $1000 to travel for a $500 prize.

Last year we had TGO, the Army team (Max Michel/Adam Bossier/Julie Goloski), Saul Kirsch, some of the SV team (Derrill Imrie/Mike Auger), and the Canadian Open national champion (Don Chang). I recall a similar turnout in 1999 at Reno.

Why the lack of interest in Area 1?