Informal poll

[38supPat]

This is for anyone whos club puts on a weeknight match.

How many stages?

How many rounds

Size of range?

Indoor or outdoor?

Types of stages (speed shoots/field courses)?

Match fee?

Extra fee for non-range members?

Reason I'm asking, I want to see if I'm off base with this, or I just can't get it to sink in to the guys at the local indoor range.

Every Wednesday night they have a club match. The range space available is a 25 m indoor range with a 10 m wide backstop. Usable space (taking into account space for guys to stand and watch as well as safe space behind where the shooter starts a stage) usually is 15 m to 20 m (usually more like 10 m) by 10 m wide.

On this range they try to fix a 50 - 60 round match, usually (always) consisting of a 32 round field course, and either two 6 round speed shoots or a 6 reload 6 speed shoot and a straight six round speed shoot.

The squads are usually at least 10 shooters and geneally takes each squad up to 1.5 hours to complete the stages.

For this they are charging $15 for match fee (for the monthly match and $10 for the weekly matches) + $5 if you are not a member of the club + $5 if you are not a member of IPSC.

To me, they are over crowding the range, (do the math 32 round field course is 16 targets + 3 targets (speed shoot) + another three targets (speed shoot) for a total of 22 targets across a 10 m wide range (targets are about half a meter wide)...22m x .5m = 11m  = hmmmmmmm) with both shooters and targets ...Less is more.

Pat

[benos]

I, obviously, don't put on the matches, but we have matches every Tues nite at Rio Salado. Tuesday night steel is known far and wide to be one  of the best/fun matches going.

Entry: ($9, if member; $10 if not)

Typically, all steel targets (set up like IPSC stages, with an occasional paper thrown in up close). Target sizes -  combinations of -  18" x 24"; 12" x12"; 8, 10, 12" discs; regular and US poppers, and just about anything else you could think of. Barricades, barrels, and walls galore.

RO and the scorer watch for hits - misses and no-shoots are plus 5 secs.

Guys on deck and 3 to 4 down pick up brass, and reset and tape if necessary.

RO's are "volunteers" chosen from the bottom of the card stack. (And rotate regularly as necessary.)

Four stages in four bays, typically between 12 and 24 rds per stage. Average probably 16 - 18 rds.

Start shooting  a little before 4 PM, and done by 9PM.

I've seen up to 140+ shooters; usually always over 100!

Powerful outdoor lighting on all 4 bays.

Usually one stage - the "skill test" (the only stage in the match that matters, according to me an TGO) - has multiple runs. Usually keep 2 out of 3 runs.

Three of the 4 bays are approx 40 yds wide by 50 yds deep. One, usually the skill test, is about 25 x 25 yds.

Usually all stages but the skill test have movement, typically 2 to 4 positions. Most all movement is controlled with square shooting boxes made out of re-bar. (Makes stages easy to set up and tear down.)

BIG FUN!

be

[Joe]

This is for anyone whos club puts on a weeknight match.

How many stages? Lately one, sometimes two.

How many rounds?  If it's one stage around thirty, if its two, 12+ per.

Size of range?  25 yard indoor about 13 yards across.

Indoor or outdoor? See above.

Types of stages (speed shoots/field courses)?  Recently our Pres has come up with some very interesting original ideas that conform with DVC and USPSA.  We sometimes shoot CM's as close as we can set them up in the limited space.

Match fee?  $10 for Club Members, $20 annual membership fee.

Extra fee for non-range members?  Range membership is not required, we rent the range per hour.  Non Club members pay $12.

We are a new club but we are growing weekly.  We have over 20 people usually show up.  We rent the range for 2 hours and are usually finished by then.  Once in a while we have ran longer.

Check out our website:

http://www.louisvillepracticalshooters.com

Joe

(Edited by Joe at 4:47 pm on Jan. 24, 2002)

[Guest nmchenry]

We shoot for $10 on Tuesday nights except the once a month classifier night is $13.  We always have 3 stages (only one classifier on that night).  Our range is about 24 feet wide and about 50 feet long where we stand but some of the shooting area is taken up by the scorekeepers table.  We have a scorekeeper and a guy who inputs in the computer so we get results very soon after shooting a stage.  We try to conform on non classifier stages to IPSC rules as much as possible but might at times shoot more rounds from a location than is considered regulation.  We try to have at least one stage that is a "field" course and generally the 3 stages add up to a round count of only about 40-60.  We have poppers and plates to use.  Often the splatter from the poppers will hit one or more of us but most injuries stop bleeding soon.  We start at 7:30pm and generally finish between 9:45 and 10:30.  There tends to be 14 to 25 shooters  (last time there were 22 and it was not even a classifier night).  Any of us can design the stages and submit them for the rangemaster to use.  Our viewing area is simply about 24  wide by 8 feet deep and is hard to see from since it is the stall area.  Many go into the lobby to sit and shoot the breeze (unfortunately they don't help).  We have no club membership.  We allow new people to shoot from low ready if they do not have a holster.  When it is over you can grab the brass on the concrete floor (many don't pick theirs up so we do----sometimes the rangemaster has not cleaned the range up so we get his customers brass as well).  Ours is all in fun and in fact several of us get together to eat cheap Mexican food about 2 blocks away before going to the match.  Twice a year we have a 4 stage classifier on a Sunday that costs $20.  One thing our rangemaster does that I don't agree with is to let people on regular classifier nights shoot the classifier for only an extra $3 fee.  I feel it should be worth at least $5  or $6 since the rest of us have to wait for the extra shooting.  Sometimes we will have 5 people shoot an extra gun.  I think by charging only an extra $3 the rangemaster is not getting paid for his targets, pasters, our time, etc.  I also feel if that person really wants to shoot an extra gun for the classifier it should be worth about $5.  Reshoots on classifiers are rarely held since the classifier is the second stage and we want to shoot the third stage and go home.  I guess I have "shot the breeze" long enough in this post.

[shred]

We do man-on-man double-elimination bowling pin shoots Tuesday nights at a local indoor range.  They won't let us draw or move in there, so IPSC-type stuff is out.  Usually there are 3 matches.  The first is $10 to enter and is the "trophy" match (1-2-3 get $15, $10 and $5 store credit).  This match has some limits to try and keep it more balanced-- 6 rounds per mag/cylinder, stock guns, and the best shooters get handicapped in various ways.  The second match is the 'Pro' match.  $15 to enter, $5/shooter to 1st, $2.50 per to 2nd.  Scopes and comps allowed, but stock guns shoot one less pin.  The third match is $5, winner takes all and can be anything from shotgun only to single-action 6-gun only.  Typically there's ~25 shooters in the first match, ~10 in the 2nd and 3rd, and it takes 2-3 hours to do the whole lot.

[John Thompson]

I shoot at two USPSA clubs in the winter.

The one I help run is in a two bay indoor commercial range and we run two non USPSA matches in the winter time.  Cost is $10-, five of which goes to the range owner.  We don't count this for activity credits to keep the cost down.  Second Saturday of the month Nov-March.

The second club runs two weekend matches Jan-March at a non commercial indoor match.  The range is 50m long and about 30m wide.  We get three stages indoors and set up a simple steel run in the snow outside under the porch.  $10- for members of the club, $15- for non members includes classifers. Reshoots and classifer reshoots are $5.

The only club I shoot at with a weekday match is at an IDPA club.  Indoor. $3- a run on an array of targets that you shoot for a few strings.  Very simple course design(boring) but if not a lot of people show up, which hasn't been the case lately, you can shoot a lot of rounds.

[slik40]

Hi Pat,

Being one of the people who run the mentioned club match on Wednesday night, I was curious about your post.  I am trying (sincerely) to understand the true nature of your concern.

Is it that you personally feel the 1 to 1.5 hours on the range is too much time (given the wait time to shoot) , or the cost is prohibitive given the value received?  Or am I missing the true issue?

The comments we had received before making these changes were that shooters were not finding it worth their time to drive, in some cases, 1.5 hrs to shoot a 20 - 30rd. course of fire.  We had all seen attendance in these matches decline and thought this to be the main reason. And honestly, since this change to higher round counts, the attendance has gone up dramatically.  So on the face of it it seems to be meeting the members requirements.

But, I do agree, that since the people doing most of the work at this club are newer to IPSC (all under 3 yrs at the game) we do have an opportunity to benefit from your vast experience.  I would be glad to hear some suggestions on how to improve what we are attempting to do (and will gladly accept any and all COF's).  And if what you suggest appeals to the majority of members, then I will be the first to champion the idea and get it pushed through the board.  But we must try and ensure we meet the needs of the majority, which is never an easy task.

If you want to reach me off-line to discuss further, you can e-mail me at dunner315@yahoo.com.  Or, see me at the desk on Wednesdays....I am usually the one stuck there

Steve Dunn

(Edited by slik40 at 12:50 pm on Mar. 8, 2002)

[38supPat]

Hey Steve, My point has many faces. 1 - 1.5 hours on the range is a long time, paticularily on a week night. At the US Nationals its one thing to have to wait 40 min between shooting each stage, at a club match its a bit much. If the squads are restricted to 6 / squad the rotation time of squads go down and you get through the match much quicker. Wait times from sign in would also go down. I don't have a problem with a high rond count match, but the way they are set up to achieve a high round count limits creativeness. Basically every wednesday you have a 32 round course, a 12 - round medium, and a 6 round speed shoot..almost always the same, it needs to vary abit. Maybe one night a 12 a 18 and a 9 and a 5...still adds up to 44 rounds, but you get to shoot more stages and trust me no one will notice if its not a 60 rounder, I have proven it there in the past.

With smaller squads and more stages the shooters will always feel like they are doing something, not standing around.

Maybe I'm the one thats off base on this, but lately I've been getting very bored with IPSC in general. It used to be that when you went to a match you never knew what you'd face, now you know all field courses are going to be max round count (32) few speed shoots, and always 6 or 8 rounds. Theres just no creativity, just a drive for rounds sprayed downrange. A stage should be a test, each portion of a field course should need a certain skill to complete. Once that test is complete you should move on..to another stage or farther into the course to meet the next test. If every bank of targets looks the same, then it gets boring, you might as well just stand in one place and empty mags into the back stop.

Pat

[slik40]

Pat,

From that perspective, I would have to agree.  Variation is the lifeblood of IPSC and we need to try and ensure COF's provide a challenge of skill in a unique format as much as possible.  The problem is finding people with the skill and time to put effort into this and design good COF's.  It is  an art to design unique COF's that also present a skill challenge.  And a lot of times it requires someone with enough experience to mentor the newer course designers on the do's and don'ts.  

I would love to pick your brain on any sample COF's you would like to see on the Wednesday night matches.  We are in fact trying to build a book of good course designs to use throughout the year.

I know last night we did a variation of some AH Postal Match stages with total round count of 40rds, but higher skill level than your typical hose'em match (read shooting partials at 15+yds).  Most people found this an eye opener due to the skill challenge, and enjoyed it quite a lot (even though we went through a lot of white patches!).

Bottom line, if you are willing to help, or point me in the right direction, I will get some new COF's up and running at this club.

Steve

[38supPat]

I'd love to help, I'm always willing to share ideas. Unfortunately, past experience there has been that egos get bruised easily when helpful suggestions are offered...as well as when course designs with rules violations are pointed out. But if you'd like my help, I'll gladly share whatever I can.

Pat