Major Pf In A Standard Ar Upper

[bigbrowndog]

Short answer.............yes, with ?'s

depends on barrel length, wether or not its a slow/fast barrel, and what bullet weight you want to shoot out of it. 150gr, can make 2300 easily from a bolt gun................................................................Oh, was that a rhetorical question, ALEX

trapr

[George]

Non-rhetorical answer, Alex. In an AK pattern rifle, NO! (*Not safely anyway)

You guys are sick talkin' about that kinda' "Q" on Xmas Eve

And speakin' of Q, I think I'll go reheat the half pulled-pork sandwich I've got in the fridge and have some breakfast Q

Trapr, I don't wanna' know where you are smellin' Q these days, but if it ain't here in the USA, make sure to stay outa' troubles way ;-)

[TommiF]

OK, smart folks...can you push a 7.62 by 39 fast enough to make Major?

A

Easily but it needs 145-150 gr ball. With 123gr it might be difficult. It's quite usual here in Finland shoot major with AK or AR-15 in 7,62x39 caliber.

Tommi

[George]

Easily but it needs 145-150 gr ball

Accurate Arms and several other powder manufacturers disagree with that statement as far as it being SAFE. Note the max load listed for a 150 in the following table only provides a 285pf. You decide if it's safe/sane!

In my experience, 7.62x39 Russian is pretty much a wimpy .30-30 with a rimless case and a pointy tipped bullet ;-)

The .30-30 is a 280-300 PF SAAMI max cartridge with a 150 doing 2k and the 7.62x39 has 10 grains less case water capacity (35.9gr vs. 46.7gr for the .30-30). Yeah, the 7.62x39's makin' 320+ inside SAAMI recommended pressure limits, NOT!

[TLD]

There are clubs that hold matches that are more "tactical" attempting to bring more martial spirit into play. 3 gun race rifles have a place, but doesn't the heavy metal divisions and combat type matches bring the whole thing back to center?

Tactical?

Umm...

Have you been eyeballing what crunchies are toting around in the Sandbox these days?

Just for entertainment value, pick which "AR15 shaped" gun is "tactical" and which is for "competition":

- Compensated 16" flattop with dual optics and a compensator, adjustable stock, rail forend

- Compensated 14.5" flattop with dual optics and a compensator, adjustable stock, rail forend

I'm all for shooting bigger bullets and have been involved in the San Angelo Brain Trust in trying to figure a better mouse(gun)trap for years, but lets keep the "gamer" v. "tacticool" discussion out of this thread. Real guys are shooting real gomers in the real world with what the folks who have never smelled burning bodies call "gamer" guns even as we speak.

Alex

You said gamer, not me. You may also have noticed that the word "tactical" was in quotes. I'll ask my question more clearly (and again since you were obviously busy opening your can of diatribe the first time).

Is it necessary to even consider reevaluating the scoring system to boost larger caliber rifles since there are already avenues in which guys who have affinity for larger calibers, for whatever reason, can compete?

[bigbrowndog]

George, I get to ride big red trucks, and play with fire!!!

Merry Christmas and see ya'll next year

Trapr and Scout

[George]

George, I get to ride big red trucks, and play with fire!!!

I see, all the more reason to be careful amigo, but I am sure you know that ;-)

[Sako92S]

MAJOR LOADS FOR 7.62x39

Case: Lapua 98 (berdan case)

Bullet: 145gr PPU

Powder: VV N120 25,43gr

OAL 55.5-56mm

Speed 2309

PF 334

Measured from AR-47 semi automatic rifle 16"

_________________________________________

Case: Lapua 98 (berdan case)

Bullet: 151gr PPU

Powder: VV N130 27,00gr

OAL 55.5-56mm

Speed 2260

PF 341

Measured from AR-47 semi automatic rifle 16"

__________________________________________

Case: Lapua (boxer case)

Bullet: 151gr PPU

Powder: VV N130 27,00gr

OAL 55.5-56mm

Speed 2227

PF 336

Measured from AR-47 semi automatic rifle 16"

____________________________________________

Case: Sellier Bellot (boxer case)

Bullet: 151gr PPU

Powder: VV N130 28,50gr

OAL 55.8mm

Speed 2251

PF 339

Measured from AR-47 semi automatic rifle 16"

_________________________________________

This is what I normally use:

Case: Lapua or Sako (boxer case)

Bullet: 150gr PPU

Powder: VV N130 26,50gr

OAL 55.5mm

Speed enough

PF enough to make major

Measured from AR-47 semi automatic rifle 16"

[Wiking]

Loading 7,62x39 to major is a hot load, but our friends from Finland has been doing that for years, and I have never heard of any accident. And they have a lot of experience with this round also!

I wish the Major PF would be reduced to about PF300, then it would be easier (and safer) to load many calibers to Major (6,5G, 6,8SPC, 7,62x39 etc.).

[Carlos]

Loading 7,62x39 to major is a hot load, but our friends from Finland has been doing that for years, and I have never heard of any accident. And they have a lot of experience with this round also!

I wish the Major PF would be reduced to about PF300, then it would be easier (and safer) to load many calibers to Major (6,5G, 6,8SPC, 7,62x39 etc.).

Good point. For those who doubt its safety, please take another look at the components above which are being used by the Finns: generally the ultra high quality Lapua brass & bullets, Vihta Vouri powder and an AR upper or probably the extreme quality Valmet rendition of an AK - often w/ a longer than 16" barrel. This stuff ain't your daddy's gunshow-bargain AK and wolf ammo. Still, it would have quite the "rainbow" trajectory.

[Sako92S]

Yes, trajectory is very "rainbow"

[George]

Yes, trajectory is very "rainbow"

I would even go so far as to call it mortar-like ;-)

I agree that good brass and VV powder help keep it a bit safer, but 320+ PF in a 16" AK bbl is gonna' be quite a good bit above max SAAMI recommendations for the cartridge and I hesitate to recommend doing this in anything but a well built gun made of high quality metal. I would not recommend this to anyone shooting a Norinco made AK, or even a genuine surplus Kalashnikov. No I would not.

[TommiF]

320+ PF in a 16" AK bbl is gonna' be quite a good bit above max SAAMI recommendations for the cartridge

Why You keep repeating that? There is no such thing used that overpressured ammo, major loads are made with nominal chamber pressures, only thing is that there is heavier bullet instead of AK normal 123gr. Lower velocities and heavier bullets just gives more PF. If somebody maker major with 123gr, then I would be worried. Actually few years ago one gunsmith tested his Norinco-AK and got data from chamber pressures. They used piezo-style measurement. Pressures were under 7,62x39 CIP pressures and Major floor was then 340.

Tommi

[bigbrowndog]

This discussion is very much like the one about major 9, here in the US, we were unfamiliar with what it took and what could be accomplished when your options are limited or you are determined to put together quality components and have to work with stuff that is readily available. Our brethren overseas, are very ingenius, and dispite the lack of inexpensive quality components have been able to do something that we in the States, have no desire or reason to do so. Our over abundance of quality components, has to a certain extent made us stagnant.

It may take a few years for this idea to take off here in the States, or it may never, but to imply that these guys are doing something unsafe or risky is not a fair statement. They are simply working on the edge, which is what drives this sport, and keeps pushing that edge further down the road.

All this is simply my OPINION, and is not intended to IRRITATE anyone.........

Trapr

[mike_pinto]

As always, Trapr....

Youer Ronge!!

Mike

[George]

I am not saying that it should not be done. .38 stupor belies that ;-)

I am saying there are pitfalls and that they are dangerous ones to the unwary. The AK running 320+ with any bullet weight is above SAAMI pressure recommendations. Using a good barrel/receiver and good brass helps a lot, but I would NOT want to be anywhere near a Chinese made AK running that recipe all day long!

There are ways to do things cautiously, and there are ways to do them foolishly. Many folks will try it and not be cautious enough, this is reason enough to say it isn't safe unless you know what you are doing.

I would really like to see the primers and case bases of some of these 320+ 7.62x39 handloads to see what pressure sign is present.

44,0000 CUP is pretty darned hot for an AK and it takes more than that to push 150 to 2100 fps + folks. I rest my case.

[mike_pinto]

I am with you on this one George.. I hope that if someone is loading that hot, they let me know before they shoot so I can watch from the clubhouse!! In the time that it would take to perfect the load, one could have been making themselves a better shot with minor and eliminated the fear of Kaboom!

[George]

BTW, a blown up pistol is pretty darned dangerous, but a blown up rifle is downright lethal.

Be safe and be sane and have a happy set of holidays everyone.

[TommiF]

I would really like to see the primers and case bases of some of these 320+ 7.62x39 handloads to see what pressure sign is present.

44,0000 CUP is pretty darned hot for an AK and it takes more than that to push 150 to 2100 fps + folks. I rest my case.

If the chamber pressure do not exceed nominal pressures, it's not dangerous. Standard military ammo gives 288PF with 123gr bullet. With same pressure, You can launch 150gr bullet off with major PF.

I believe that Sako92s can send pics of his used brass? With all overpressure signs and all

Tommi

[bigbrowndog]

Speaking of dangerous long guns, going KaBoom.............There was supposed to be video of a shotgun coming apart from the ESC, with an RO close by. The word was, handloaded slugs, using pointy slugs that were sticking out past the roll crimp. Does anyone have the video? No names are required, but from what I understand it was...............Quite Spectacular.

Mikey Pinto, we simply must get together, for some story telling and drinking

George, I believe the European equivalent of SAAMI, is CIP, and from the information i've gotten, based on CIP's findings SAAMI conclusions are conservative. Maybe due to lack of lawsuit liability.

Trapr

[George]

George, I believe the European equivalent of SAAMI, is CIP, and from the information i've gotten, based on CIP's findings SAAMI conclusions are conservative. Maybe due to lack of lawsuit liability.

Trapr

And therin lies the rub. The legality is based on the worst POS gun you can fire a cartridge in and in this case, there are some clones made from recycled catfood cans and there are some made with real steel. The trick is knowing you are pushing a cartridge in a GOOD piece of steel, not a piece of Kleenex ;-)

I would love to see the images posted here. I will also look into the CIP/SAAMI differences of opinion some. I still feel 44-48,000 CUP is pretty hot for this case. It's almost exactly like a .30-30 ballistically, but with a smaller case capacity. The .30-30 brass I have pushed to 2200fps + with 150gr SP's has started to show primer flow at about 325 PF equivalent, but did not exhibit any other warning signs. I stop when primers fill the cup. Piercings are no fun ;-/ I kinda' know this from my huntin' days and handloading up some really HOT! .-30-30. 2300fps is where I called it quits and my huntin' loads were set at 2050-2100 for safety's sake. I was using WW powders and WW brass so the Fin's have that up on me, but then again, I stopped when the primers flowed BADLY! The brass itself never complained!

JME with a similar case/cartridge ;-)

[TommiF]

George,

You are comparing two different cartridges.

30-30 max press is 42000 psi

7,62x39 max press is 52000 psi

If You burn Your primers with ancient cartridge, do not compare it with modern arms.

Tommi

[George]

George,

You are comparing two different cartridges.

30-30 max press is 42000 psi

7,62x39 max press is 52000 psi

If You burn Your primers with ancient cartridge, do not compare it with modern arms.

Tommi

Au' Contraire dear sir, the SAAMI Max for 30-30 is actually less than 2% different than the SAAMI Max for 7.62x39 Russian (45,000 CUP vs 41000 CUP). The 30-30 and the 7.62x39 are NOT that different in case style/construction either. The 7.62 may be a rimless cartridge, but the Russians based that design on older, proven case designs when they began their assault rifle research in the late, late 30's! Nothing Modern about the 7.62x39 cartridge.

These are current specifications for each cartridge case:

The 30-30 was almost certainly looked at by Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov when he was scouting around for designs to copy/steal from. Ancient is as ancient does my friend. The 7.62x39 is pretty old too. Way older than the .223 and derived from WWII and earlier vintage cartridge designs.

The following link shows the 7.62x39 being at least half a century old in concept and base cartridge dimensional specifications (1943ish).

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Wikipedia dates the 762x39 Russian as introduced in 1949. Yeah, it's modern ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_x_39_mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30

BTW Tommi, the 30-30 brass I mentioned NEVER showed ANY pressure sign, only the primers flowed/flattened (badly too!). The 7.62x39 case is almost exactly the same in construction robustness as the 30-30 and is no more capable of taking huge over-pressure and possibly even less so (the 10 grain lower case capacity says this is true under a heavy projectile).

SAAMI maximum pressures are based on safety in the guns they are intended for. The 30-30 platform has iron still in use that pre-dates modern metalurgy and the cartridge has a lower than warranted max pressure rating because of the possibility of modern ammunition being fired in guns manufactured at/before the turn of the century. In actuality, the 30-30 is capable of even higher pressures than the 7.62x39 when it is fired in a modern steel chamber with good components! Not the other way around.

A good rule of thumb in any caliber to determine if a bullet weight should be used, or not is whether the smallest bullet weight typically used can be driven to the same PF as the heaviest you are thinking of using. If this is possible, then the heavier bullet weight is viable for that case volume, if not, it isn't.

In the case of the 7.62x39 (pun intended), it CANNOT get anything under a 145-150 grain bullet to 320+ PF in any circumstance. This indicates that the case volume is too small to do this safely. A 30-30 however, can push a 125-130grainer to 320+ PF safely because it DOES have the case capacity needed to do so (46.7 vs. 35.9 grains of H2O).

BTW, BTW, my 30-30 load testing was done with a 20" bbl Winchester model 94 manufactured in 1975 with quality steel. A 16" bbl AK using the smaller capacity 7.62x39 case will generate hugely higher pressures getting to the same velocity with a .30 cal 150 grain projectile and that pretty much says it all ;-/

--

Regards,

[Sako92S]

I have use major loadings for 7.62x39 in several matches.

Mostly those are included either 145gr or 150gr bullets.

Someone asked about pictures of used cases (major loadings)

I took ramdomly 5 cases from my pot.

You can see yoursefl if there is any pressure signs

Powders we have used and tested succesfully are VV N120, VV N130 and VV N133

We have even loaded 7.62x39 with 150gr bullet for PF 340 without pressure signs.

[TommiF]

George,

We have quite different maxpressures.

From Speer reloadind book I found pressures:

30-30Win 38000cup

7,62x39 50000cup

From Lapua Reloadind book

30-30 320 MPa Cip, 42000 psi Saami

7,62x39 355 MPa Cip, 45000 psi Saami

Anyway, I found atleast 10% higher pressures for 762x39 compared to 30-30.

And I still say that just reloading with heavier bullets and using nominal chamber pressures, 7,62x39 makes major.

Tommi