Help Fitting An Oversized Hand.

[Cuz]

Hello,

I'm trying to replace the hand on my 625 to correct a timing/trigger freeze problem. I just found out that oversized means too wide to fit thru the slot in the frame. I'm guessing I just need to stone it down a bit to make it fit. My question is does it matter which side I stone? I'm assuming it does. One side is going to be much easier to stone because it's completely flat. The other side has the three pins sticking out that go into the trigger. I'm hoping it's the easy flat side I'm supposed to stone, but my luck doesn't normally run that way.

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Cuz.

[Carmoney]

Yeah, that should work. Some people believe you should leave the hand alone and open up the window, and in fact they make a special file just for that application. However, I hate doing that because then I am forever committed to using large-thickness hands. When a gun goes out of time, it's usually not because the hand wears, it's because the window in the frame gets wider and allows the hand to slow sideways a little.

Go easy, a little material off the hand will make a huge difference in the timing. Stone the right side (looking down the gun), the side without the pins.

[cking]

Depends where you got your oversized from. The factory are just fatter not longer. The powers is fatter, and longer, with a different shape to the finger.

I talked with Powers on the phone about the instructions with his hand. I had a late timed N625-8PC gun.

They will tell you to work on the window, because most instructions are on idea that it is an old worn gun rather than fixing a new.

I'm not sure what you mean by a freeze problem?

What was wrong with mine is the DA would drop before the cylinder locked when you put some drag on the cylinder.

It took and overlength hand and an oversized stop to complete the job.

With Powers hand which is long plus flat topped. The cylinder wants to take off right away. So you have to have the gap at the trigger nose that hits the cylinder stop very close 3/4 thousandths. I could not get that with a mim replacement part.

Since my gun was new and window was in good shape, and the extractor was new I fitted the hand to window with about .001 clearance. Then of course the hand would bind on the rachetts at the top of the stroke as hand tried to move past, and again on the trigger release.

So what I read was narrow the hand to fit the smallest rachett. Then cut the rest of rachetts to the hand.

First time I cut rachetts I left a little interference and shot it a some. Then it left a nice pattern on rachetts and hand of where it was hitting. Second time through I also worked over the bottom of hand where it drags on rachetts on the trigger release. This allowed me to reduce my recoil spring weight some. Made action really nice and smooth.

Don't be in a hurry use felt tip marker, go slowly.

Please explain what you mean by freeze?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Don't go too wild Cuz. Sounds like you may have a bad cylinder stop because of the "Trigger freeze" comment.

[Cuz]

The trigger freeze started happening when I replaced the original hand with a standard size replacement from S&W. It only happens on one cylinder, and not every time. It's not the cylinder stop because I've specifically watched to make sure. As best I can tell it's the hand moving up to engage the ratchet and getting stuck rather than rotate the cylinder. It's like the hand is hitting the ratchet too close to the center and jamming into it rather than sliding off to the right and rotating the cylinder. Does that make any sense? It's just enough to throw off my shot when I'm shooting because of the slight hitch when firing. Don't really know how else to explain it. I did go back and install the original hand that came with the gun today to test and it fires fine, but the gun is out of time. S&W also sent me an oversized hand to try which I was going to install today when I discovered it didn't fit. I thought I'd ask about which side to stone before touching it.

How much play should there be for the hand in the window of the frame? Should it be a tight fit or a loose fit?

Thanks,

-Cuz.

[cking]

Sounds to me like one tight ratchet, because of the slop of the cylinder on the yoke you need to take a moon clip with some spent rounds and stuff it in cylinder then carefully check each cylinder for bind on DA stroke and bind on the trigger return. That one cylinder that is freezing sometimes needs a little taken off the ratchet.

Coat it with majic marker, then dry fire, then inspect and you'll see the shiny spot where you have to take off a little. Use a small hand file.

[Cuz]

Sounds to me like one tight ratchet, because of the slop of the cylinder on the yoke you need to take a moon clip with some spent rounds and stuff it in cylinder then carefully check each cylinder for bind on DA stroke and bind on the trigger return. That one cylinder that is freezing sometimes needs a little taken off the ratchet.

Coat it with majic marker, then dry fire, then inspect and you'll see the shiny spot where you have to take off a little. Use a small hand file.

Would that be the very same spot on the ratchet's where Jerry Miculek says in his video to never touch???

I'm too chicken to mess with the ratchets. I'm thinking I'll just leave it out of time for now since it's only a little off. Since all my shooting with it is pins/plates/uspsa type action shooting I don't think it will matter. I will keep an eye on it to see if it gets worse or not.

-Cuz.

[pskys2]

If you think it's the ratchet notches on the Extractor. Buy a new Extractor, Brownells sells them, and fit it just working on the ratchet. If you screw that up you can still fall back on the old one. If it works, you'll have a spare.

[Waltermitty]

I've never fitted a hand, but my oldest 625-8 is getting very close on timing. I'm very interested in how this is done.

Are all the N frame extractors the same? I have a couple of spares from 325PD's, but they look like they have more metal in them than either of my 625-8's. Are they different or is there that much metal removed in fitting?

If you had a high-mileage gun that was moving toward late timing, (sounds like ckings issue) what would you do first if you were biased against opening the window?

Would it be better just to start with a fresh hand and extractor?

I have the Kuhnhausen Revo book, but I haven't found the step-by-step process I would like to see before I start the process.

[Carmoney]

I've done timing jobs on lots of S&Ws over the years, and have never needed a new extractor. Fitting an oversize hand has always done the trick for me.

[Waltermitty]

I've done timing jobs on lots of S&Ws over the years, and have never needed a new extractor. Fitting an oversize hand has always done the trick for me.

Just a plain-Jane S&W oversized hand (as opposed to the longer Powers part mentioned above)?

[pskys2]

Mike's right, but if you get too aggressive on your chamfering or it wasn't set up at the factory right you can run into the need for a new one.

I did mine cause even with a tight fit hand it locked up late and I didn't want to file the window. Changing the Extractor could also change your headspace, but it didn't on mine (then everything was still pretty new). So far I've had no problems and I hope it lasts forever, looks good so far.

An OS Hand is always the first place to start. But I'd think real hard before filing too much on the window.

If you feel the need to do it, or want a spare those fingers look so flimsy, here's a bit of info. I'll tell you how I did it on my PC625, but I'm no 'Smith and my last name ain't Lee (or Lea as Bane showed it on his latest show).

Step 1: Fit the ends of the Star so they don't take all of the torque. The majority of the torque should rest on the flat of the Extractor. This isn't real hard but don't overdo it the tips should pretty much kiss the Cylinder.

Step 2: Chamfer the new Star/Cylinder.

Step 3: Take the Hand out and cycle the cylinder around, you can see thru the Hand Window about how much you need to take off of each notch. I recommend marking 1 cylinder/notch & ratchet/notch so you can keep track of where you are. I used a 1911 Slide File, with only 1 cutting edge contacting the side of the notch. Then just start taking off a bit at a time.

You will want to leave each ratchet notch visible in the Hand Window.

Step 4: Now reinstall the Hand and identify the ratchets that are too tight. I used a loose fit Hand for this. Gradually take the tight ratchet notches down until the Cylinder cycles smoothly and doesn't hang up at any point.

On the new style the length doesn't usually become an issue. After total lockup the Hand will proceed past the ratchet a bit.

By working the action slowly you can then see what areas may need rounding or smoothing out to slick it up. Then when everything looked good, I put a tighter hand in and fine tuned the lock up. I'm sure there are other tricks, but I can't think/don't know them.

This is how I did my PC625 in May and I've put 10m+ thru it and many more dry fires. Brownells does sell the Extractor so if you screw up it can be replaced.

It wasn't that hard, but it was time consuming and needs your full attention.

Good Luck,

Dave

P.S. I really think Mike hasn't done one because he can't use his Dremel on it. But, then maybe he can!

Edited September 26, 2006 by pskys2

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Absolute best way to accomplish this is to take a micrometer and measure the thickness of the tip of the hand. Call S&W and tell them what you have and aske them to send you one a few thousanths over. Lots easier than cutting down a hand and much better than an inexperienced person ruining the extractor.

Also, best file to use is a 4" Barrette file http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/Pro...+BARRETTE+FILES

Regards,

Edited September 26, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Carmoney]

Just a plain-Jane S&W oversized hand (as opposed to the longer Powers part mentioned above)?

Yeah, I ordered one of the Ron Power hands once....man, the thing is so oversized it seemed like way too much work to fit the thing. Although I'm sure for a gun that's waaaay out of time the Power hand would be just the ticket.

There's a gunshop an hour away that has a bunch of hands in stock, the gunsmith has already mic'd the hands and marked sizes on them with a sharpie.

When he times guns, he picks the one he needs. Me, I just buy a couple of the thickest hands he has in his bin, and they seem to work without too much fitting work.

P.S. I really think Mike hasn't done one because he can't use his Dremel on it. But, then maybe he can!

As one famous fictional wheelgunner once said on the silver screen, "A man's got to know his limitations."

[pskys2]

P.S. I really think Mike hasn't done one because he can't use his Dremel on it. But, then maybe he can!

As one famous fictional wheelgunner once said on the silver screen, "A man's got to know his limitations."

How in the world can that be topped.

Edited September 27, 2006 by pskys2

[cking]

One other thing to do before you muck with hand and rachet. This is straight from Ron Powers mouth. On N frames fit the yoke first. He says most N frames are lose from factory. The top of yoke should kiss the bottom of barrel shroud. This is only on N frames and supports the cylinder/yoke during recoil. Once that part is Ok then make sure yoke face is square, and remove almost all of cylinder endplay .000-.001. Then check cylinder gap and headspace. Now fit cylinder stop, check each slot in cylinder for fit, if frame is worn, but a slight bevel to stop, fat at bottom in frame, and about .001 clearence in cylinder, check for binding. Next is to find the loosest rachet and narrow the hand to fit it. Then fit rest of rachetts to the hand.

Of course the obvious detail about the skill needed to do this work is missing. Should only have to work on the window if it is worn.

Narrowing the powers hand wasn't too hard. Piece of glass and piece of 150 wet/dry paper and your mic and start sanding it. Took about 30 minutes first time I did it. Keeping check to make sure your sanding is not taking more off one spot.

Too narrow the hand tip I marked how much stuck out of window, them put it in my machinist vise and used a stone to narrow it.

I find the lupe that they use to inspect film negatives, flipped over so you put the clear part to your eye and high intensity light focused on your spot of interest makes it so old eyes can see.

A loose cylinder makes fitting the hand hard.

[Steve Jensen]

One other thing to do before you muck with hand and rachet. This is straight from Ron Powers mouth. On N frames fit the yoke first. He says most N frames are lose from factory. The top of yoke should kiss the bottom of barrel shroud. This is only on N frames and supports the cylinder/yoke during recoil. Once that part is Ok then make sure yoke face is square, and remove almost all of cylinder endplay .000-.001. Then check cylinder gap and headspace. Now fit cylinder stop, check each slot in cylinder for fit, if frame is worn, but a slight bevel to stop, fat at bottom in frame, and about .001 clearence in cylinder, check for binding. Next is to find the loosest rachet and narrow the hand to fit it. Then fit rest of rachetts to the hand.

Of course the obvious detail about the skill needed to do this work is missing. Should only have to work on the window if it is worn.

Narrowing the powers hand wasn't too hard. Piece of glass and piece of 150 wet/dry paper and your mic and start sanding it. Took about 30 minutes first time I did it. Keeping check to make sure your sanding is not taking more off one spot.

Too narrow the hand tip I marked how much stuck out of window, them put it in my machinist vise and used a stone to narrow it.

I find the lupe that they use to inspect film negatives, flipped over so you put the clear part to your eye and high intensity light focused on your spot of interest makes it so old eyes can see.

A loose cylinder makes fitting the hand hard.

How do you tighten up the top of the yoke to the barrel shroud? I've got one with a big gap. Didn't know it could be fixed.

[cking]

buy powers yoke washers from brownells. With spring loaded yoke retainer screw it easy you just fit washer thickness to the fit you want. With old style you have to refit the yoke retainer screw.

[pskys2]

Buy one thing from Powers and it usually comes with instructions for several items. Well worth the cost just for the info.