How Do You Catch A Shooter Sandbaggin'

[Bruce]

Grin everytime I hear about someone sandbagging a pistol match. I mean, what is the point? Most trophies you can win can be bought for less than an entry fee at any trophy shop...and the prizes??? Come on.

I mean, wouldn't it be like being a D1 wrestler but sneaking into an age group AAU meet...and winning? Or boxing, as an adult, in a kid's class? Like Kramer on the karate episode!

Sandbaggers are inherent losers...and they know it.

[tazz45acp]

When I was doing collegiate cycling, one of the rival teams got a junior national champion in the Duathlon (running+cycling). He whooped our asses in the lower categories which he did not belong in. My teammates at one race found a huge pile of sandbags. So they piled up the sandbags around his car. At the next race, he was racing in the highest category and still won.

So if you find a pile of sandbags around and know a sandbagger...

WOW. ROTFL!!!. I'll remember this one!!!

[BSeevers]

Grin everytime I hear about someone sandbagging a pistol match. I mean, what is the point? Most trophies you can win can be bought for less than an entry fee at any trophy shop...and the prizes??? Come on.

Yea that's why I just ordered a 10 foot tall trophy recognizing me as All Knowing King Of The World.

Now I have caught people cheating, very rare, to just win a local. No trophy, no money and well no honor, if you ask me. There are some interesting personalities in the world.

[Trooper]

I have (recently) added IPSC to my shooting "calendar"....

I've shot Cowboy Action for 12 years.... and done alright. Category win at EOT in 2001... category wins at various US State Titles etc (CAS is split by "category".. based on shooting style/propellent/etc etc)

At CAS events, as mentioned, the prize draws are random.... so, it's true that the shooter who came in DFL might actually walk out with a rifle or a pistol or a 550 or.. well, you get the idea.

To the winners go the trophies (and the honour?) - prizes are a matter of luck.

That works well..... in CAS. Why? Because that has ALWAYS been the philosophy!

I cannot see it working in IPSC/USPSA - regardless of any merit the idea holds - or doesn't..... as it would represent a MAJOR change. Or that is my impression from this thread and others....

I DO think there have been some excellent ideas suggested here however!

[SinistralRifleman]

Assuming we want to keep competitive shooting an amature sport that anyone with the means to afford it can participate in:

We could make this simple and not have any classifications at all, which is what I would prefer. Only have divisions based on equipment. Award trophies in order of finish over all and by division. Award prizes by random drawing.

...or

Assuming we want competitors to be financially motivated to win matches, and turn it into a professional sport where winning finances the ability to shoot more matches.

Have amature and pro-divisions. Pro would be anyone with corporate sponsorships. Make the entry fee higher for pro-division, and give cash pay outs.

...and most of us will watch it on ESPN57 on Sunday mornings rather than participate ourselves.

Thread Drift :oN:

Do I love the following!

"I'm not willing to finance the M/GM's prize table".

Let me get this right, people that win should get the same prizes as everyone else? WTF - what the h*ll is the point in working so hard at winning then!

This is one very unique sport that the average guy/gal can shoot the same match and sometimes in the same squad as the big boys/girls. That is one of the things I love about the sport is that I get shoot with and help out everyone I get a chance to at the matches.

Thread Drift :off:

:-)

It gets old donating high dollar items that the top dogs turn around and sell for fraction of what they're worth as soon as they take it off the prize table.

This devalues the sponsors product. The top shooter who won it just in effect publicly said "this isn't worth what they're charging for them, and I have no use for it."

As a sponsor we want as many new people coming out as possible. If people who didn't neccessarily shoot well walk away with something cool, they're going to be back next year. Hopefully they will bring friends. They will be more likely to actually use what we donated, and tell all their friends to buy more products we make. If the sponsors don't see a return on their investment for the product they donated (advertising) they're not going to keep donating prizes.

The top people have corporate sponsorships and will always reccomend the products of the companies they are representing (as they should) over other sponsors.

I think perhaps the top people should get a cash payout, and then everyone could be happy. If you can make a living off shooting all the time, good for you. But that's not what the prize table is there for IMHO.

Edited February 18, 2007 by SinistralRifleman

[Kyle J]

Leave sandbaggers in your dust.

Exactly. A sandbagger, by definition, is determined to be a loser. He has given up the hope of improving himself and takes a perverted satisfaction in maintaining his mediocrity. Let 'em.

+100 to that!

By the same token, I find it embarassing that we've set up this bizzarro-world system where the best performers aren't being rewarded. Hell, even communist-bloc nations gave the best athlete the medal. So, we reward overall finish as well.

I love this sport......but it IS really small in the grand scheme of "sporting events". If we had enough members, we'd have enough GM's to run a "100 Best Guns Nationals" every year and have enough support to get that televised event......or would we? Is the classification system based on the normal curve and are we always cursed with only the top 5% of shooters making GM status and perhaps only 10 really shining? Do enough of us exist to endorse a top ten shootoff?

I think the current system is the lesser of evils. Until we get bigger, and more popular, we need to endorse the sport to the casual shooter and reward participation. People will then watch and fund the rewards that the GM's deserve....but currently if you only had GM's at major matches....you couldn't afford to pay the price of holster wear, let alone gas or ammo.....of the amazing effort it takes to reach that level.

As shooters in a particular culture, I think we sometimes lose perspective. To the general public, I'd wager more people are aware of Olympic Badminton than USPSA. Did football and baseball start out with tremendous payoffs? Of course not, most just played for the love of the game and people loved those games because you could go and play them in your backyard with your friends on any given Sunday...anywhere....and they loved to watch people excel at something they could relate to. You can't do that with USPSA, because there isn't a club in everyone's backyard (let alone one that the general public is aware of), there are misconceptions about guns, the sport carries more responsibility than hitting a baseball ......and.....just shooting a paper target at the range is like just throwing a football across an empty field......it's not playing the game. It's just not the same and means nothing to the "sporting community" or general public.

More than anything, USPSA needs to be public/junior friendly and in this time period...be challenging, safe and fun. If that means that Joe Shmoe who "sandbags" gets a prize and goes back to the mill and gets people interested......well God bless him. The alternative is that we all up the pony up an extra $ and fund.....a commercial....or local public charity/youth/disabled shoots......or offer more free clinics.....or....

So......until the public pays the shoots......the D, C, B and A class shooters will continue to fund it. Don't dis them too hard. How many actually make more money in prizes at the D/C/B class level to pay their own gas, ammo and travel as well?

Nobody will know of this sport worldwide until the idiots that think guns kill people all go away. Until then it is only going to be those of us that realize you could kill someone just as easily with a pencil as with a gun and it is the person that does the killing, not the weapon.

I think the world could use more hugs, especially if HOOTERS is your major match sponsor and they supply a Stage Host at each stage.

NOW YOUR TALKING! I like that idea!

------

Sorry to point out the following but the logic seems somewhat flawed. Damn do I wish we could just go back to heads up overall competitions.

I would have no problems with the distribution of prizes into the top 3 or 5 of the classes - IF the classification system was VALID and the people that win the classes ACTUALLY SHOULD BE IN THEM.

So let me get this right:

1. We seem to have determined that you can't stop sandbagging.

2. Some here want to reward based on class performance.

HUH?

I think the prize system should be done like the 2006 Fall Classic. Trophies awarded to the top 1 and 2 and maybe 3. Then after that send people up in order of finish in each division. You can't sandbag between divisions.

I think your highest classification should count for all divisions except Revolver.

Those round thingies ain't normal.

+100000000000000000

What is a prize table? Is that like a really nice table to put your stuff on?

Its a place that you find yourself after years of practice, & thousands of $$$ ? mayby tens of thousands of $$ in, 'investing'. And vacations missed, yards not mowed, kids not played with & kisses not kissed, & love not made. After all that you stand at a (Prize Table)and pick something you could have eazyily purchased by not eating out for one meal.

And It will be the most wonderfull thing you have, becuase you can say ... !I won this!

Just make shurr you write a thank you note ...or life will Getchya

So, If a sandbager gets a prize that should not have ben, they Steal much more than match placment.

Jamie Foote

I agree with this completely.

onlyshoot club matches sporadicly

One idea is to get rid of the multiple classifications (I'm B-Open, C-Limited, whatever) and go to a single classification. The net effect of this would be to classify a shooter according to his *skill* (like, actually aiming and moving and executing a stage strategy) rather than according to the kind of gun he chooses to put in his hand. There are a variety of potential advantages (like, as soon as you are classified, you're classified in all divisions). I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts.

Another idea is to make it so that a shooter *must* shoot a number of valid classifiers per year in order to keep their classification current. For example, if you are a B-class shooter now, you can't just sit on that B-card for years and never have your classification catch up with your A-class skills. You would have to shoot valid classifiers to keep your card, and if you don't, your classification would go "stale" and you would be listed as "unclassified" until you have current classifier scores. Again, there are pros and cons - this might be a problem for people who, for whatever reason, are not able to shoot enough classifiers (like, active-duty military on overseas deployments or whatever). I think we can come up with exceptions to deal with those. But it would *directly* resolve the issue of the guy who comes in from [wherever] with a 3-year-old C-card that doesn't reflect his A-class skills. Again, would welcome people's thoughts on this.

I like both of these ideas. Just keep revolver on its own and don't include it with everything else. Completely different as far as this sport goes.

[Chriss Grube]

Hey Bill if you were that damn good you would know that I already have that trophy...rookie!!