Bullet "shaving" Problem

[AustinMike]

I ran into a weird issue today. I've been loading .40 (new caliber to me, but I've been reloading others for many years) the past month or so with good results using once-fired Speer and RP brass. I've loaded Precision coated bullets and some Precision Delta FMJ. No issues with this brass. I got a hold of a batch of mixed brass that has a lot of Federal nickle plated and Winchester brass. The Federal brass seems to "shave" into both Precision coated and jacketed bullets. I'll see lead or copper shavings all the way around the case mouth. I tried some Zero JHP too for sanity and had the same problem on the Federal brass. The Winchester only seemed to cause this on the coated bullets. I pulled bullets and the shaving starts above the base a good ways, so it doesn't seem to be happening on initial seating.

I'm using a Dillon 550B, EGW/Lee undersize sizer, Redding competition seating die and Lee factory crimp die. The problem is happening in the seating die. There is plenty of bell. I've got the Redding die screwed down close to the base plate, just a hair from touching it. I'm seating to 1.135" for Glock use.

I'm wondering if maybe the seating die does any sizing? A little of the bell gets removed with a pass through that die, but it seems that would be somewhat normal. Can't see it being enough to damage the bullet.

Odd that this only happens with certain brass. I ran the brass through my tumbler for a few more hours to see if there might have been some abrasive residue in the cases, but that's apparently not it. I'm stumped! I've used the same die setup in 9mm for quite a while now, with any old brass, and I've not seen any issues. Any ideas?

[L9X25]

It could be that some makes of brass are harder and do not bell as much as the softer ones. If you are achieving enough bell with each brand of brass, this may not be your problem. Adding a little more bell might be a good test. I load 10mm and do not experience your problem.

[EricW]

Bet you a beer that the case mouths are peened over from being tumbled in a cement mixer or similar cleaning process.

You have three choices:

- Chamfer the case mouths

- Sort out the bad brass (assuming anything is good)

- Throw it all out and make sure that you closely inspect the next batch of brass you purchase.

I never buy pre-processed brass for this very reason.

[AustinMike]

Don't see anything wrong, but damage to the brass may not be visible to the naked eye, I suppose. The brass was free (maybe there was a reason for that.) It looks like the Federal doesn't work with any bullets I have, but the Winchester and others seems to be OK with FMJ. I wonder if changing to a regular sizing die would help? I might try that tomorrow. My head hurts from messing with this today. Time for beer. Eric, I'd happily share my Shiner Bock with you!

Here's a pic of what this mess looks like. Pulled Precision and Precision Delta bullets out of Federal cases, then a Precision in one of the Winchester cases fresh out of the seating die, uncrimped. You can see the bell and the buildup of lead that got pushed up. Note how the shaving starts past the base, so there is apparently enough bell. The nick at the bottom of that Precision bullet is probably from bouncing up and hitting the case in the kinetic bullet puller.

Click for larger image.

Edited July 30, 2006 by AustinMike

[Flatland Shooter]

You may want to check the case length. A shorter case does not get flared out quite as much and may cause your problems. (Been there, done that.)

As a minor check, lower the powder drop thingy (don't remember the correct name) for a real drastic flare of the case and see if it still does it. If so, sounds like much thicker brass than your crimp die seems to like.

Edited July 30, 2006 by Flatland Shooter

[EricW]

Try posting a picture of a few unloaded cases (not the ones from the pulled bullets) if you can. What you're looking for is a burr around the perimiter of the case mouths. The marks left on the Prec. Delta *really* look like what I went through. There was no way I could increase the belling to fix the problem because the belling gets partially removed in the seating die - particularly so if you're using a Redding Competition seater.

[HSMITH]

Back your crimp WAY off too, you are really rolling it in there when you don't need to. It is also counter productive to crimp that tight. Look for no less than .420" at the case mouth, I like to see .421-.422".

[XRe]

I started encountering this when I started using the U-die myself. Belling the case more resolved it for me. Same bullets, same mixed cases, same-ish tumbling practices. If I don't end up running 200s later, I might switch back to the Dillon die....

Still might be your brass, of course, but... I hardly bell my SuperComp brass, but the .40 stuff, post-U-die, is belled out a bunch.... Oh, none of my brass came from mail order anything - its once fired unprocessed police brass, for the most part... Speer, Federal, Winchester....

[AustinMike]

Back your crimp WAY off too, you are really rolling it in there when you don't need to. It is also counter productive to crimp that tight. Look for no less than .420" at the case mouth, I like to see .421-.422".

Actually, the picture I posted is right out of the seating die and I crimp separately with the Lee FCD. The Redding seating die doesn't crimp. My crimp is .420"

I tried the regular (not undersized) sizing die a little bit ago and that didn't change anything. I also tried an exaggerated bell and that didn't work either. The Redding die does push that back in a bit, so it ends up being the same I think.

[XRe]

I wonder if its possibly your seating die, then?? Maybe its a taste undersize, itself? I've seen seat dies partially remove extreme belling before, but never enough to dig in to a bullet - and even if it removed everything but the most modest bell, it still shouldn't be digging in all the way around.

Eric might be on to something, too....

You might also measure the case wall thickness of the different brands, and see if that offers any clue (like, the Federals are thicker than the others, or something)??

[packed]

I have had the same issue only more so. Mine was smashing the brass some. Why because I could not seat the bullet before the seating die wanting to start crimping the case. I was using RCBS and Redding seating die with a roll crimp. If I backed off on the die and screwed in the seating shaft I still could not get it to work properly befor running out of threads. Any way I fixed my problem by going with DILLON Die's. I now use a seperate crimp. If you are already doing so then sorry cannot help don't know the problem.

[AustinMike]

Try posting a picture of a few unloaded cases (not the ones from the pulled bullets) if you can. What you're looking for is a burr around the perimiter of the case mouths. The marks left on the Prec. Delta *really* look like what I went through. There was no way I could increase the belling to fix the problem because the belling gets partially removed in the seating die - particularly so if you're using a Redding Competition seater.

Eric, I think you've got the right answer. This is about as good as a picture as I seem to be able to get with my camera. On the left are samples of good nickle and brass cases. On the right are nickle and brass samples from the bad batch. There is a definite difference in case mouth.

Click for larger image

With my cheapo mic', the good brass seems to be around .010-.012" at the case mouth. The bad stuff is .014-.016", with the Federal being the worst. Some of the Winchester is in the .012-.014" range, which explains why it seemed to work with jacketed, but not coated bullets, as the coating scrapes easier. The tighter tolerances of the Redding seating die may be more susceptible to this. I wonder if this brass might work in a different die? I'm not going to take the time to find out though!

This batch is going in the scrap heap. I came by it for free, so at least the only thing wasted was my time and a few bullets. Aaaaarrrrrgghhhhh!

Thanks for your help, ya'll. I owe you a beer, Eric!

[EricW]

Please send a Spaten Optimator to:

You *can* use a chamfer tool to fix the brass, but you'll have to do both the inside and the outside in order to repair the brass. At $25/K delivered, I decided that fixing 40 brass wasn't worth the hassle.