Ismi Guide Rod On G17 For Production?

[ysued]

Guys,

Maybe this has been discussed here on the forums before, but..... Here it goes!!

Is the ISMI SS Guide Rod on a Glock 17 Legal for Production!!

I was told it wasn't, but then I've seen several folks using it!!

Thanks much in advance for your guidance!!

Y

Edited July 13, 2006 by ysued

[Nemo]

I'm not sure. In the past I used them and it was never an issue. I even used one for an area match. However, if you go by the rulebook the hex head showing below the muzzle MAY be considered an external mod (US App D9 - 21.5). Heck, the pin relocation in the Vanek triggers made them ilegal. Also, if they are heavier than the factory setup by 2 ounces it would make the gun ilegal for the division (US App D9 - 16).

Then again, I may be wrong. Lately I'm famous for that.

Anyone?

[Musky Hunter]

its legal for USPSA not IPSC.

[Kevin Kline]

Musky's right, IPSC (International) not legal, USPSA is legal.

[sfinney]

Heck, in USPSA you can use tungsten guiderods in Prod, even.....

[ysued]

Thanks for the responses!!

As we all know sometimes we all read into the rules more than we have to and sometimes Rules are left to the interpretation of some.

I went directly to the top for info.

I got wights & I took pictures and sent them to John Amidon.

BTW the ISMI Guide Rod and ISMI Spring assembly is only .6011 of an Ounce heavier than the Stock Clock Assembly

I'm even sending John my ISMI Guide Rod for him to give me a written Determination.

I ask because I was told at last years Area 3 that they were not legal for USPSA Production Class.

As soon as I get the written Determination from John, I'll post it.

Edited July 16, 2006 by ysued

[ysued]

It's Official!!

The ISMI Guide Rod IS Approved for Production!!

Here's the quote from John Amidon:

"Hi Yamil,

Tested the guide rod today, cannot see any reason that it would not be allowed in Production division.

You can use this email as authorization if you would like, but the metal guide rod is legal in Production.

Regards,

John Amidon

Director of NROI"

[driver8M3]

i wonder why the vanek trigger pin is an illegal external modification, while a non-stock guiderod sticking out the end of the gun is not.

[Nik Habicht]

i wonder why the vanek trigger pin is an illegal external modification, while a non-stock guiderod sticking out the end of the gun is not.

Vanek Trigger Pin --- External.

Guiderod --- internal.

Off course that's only a WAG......

[driver8M3]

Guiderod --- internal.

not all of it...

[Nik Habicht]

Guiderod --- internal.

not all of it...

Haven't seen this particualr guiderod ---- but all of my Glock guiderods sit below flush, making them internal.....

[driver8M3]

on my G17 the endcap from the stock guiderod is fully external. unless the aftermarket guiderods use the stock endcap, there will be a visible external difference.

[Nik Habicht]

on my G17 the endcap from the stock guiderod is fully external. unless the aftermarket guiderods use the stock endcap, there will be a visible external difference.

Step away from just Glocks for a moment ---- I suspect the determining factor for all production guns is that a guiderod is normally an internal part, Glocks and possibly other anomalies notwithstanding, while "inside the trigger guard" is apparently not defined as being internal to the gun......

Of course, that's just another WAG on my part.....

[ysued]

i wonder why the vanek trigger pin is an illegal external modification, while a non-stock guiderod sticking out the end of the gun is not.

Do you mean this??

Glock on the Left, ISMI on the Right!!

The only diggerence is that the ISMI has a button Head Screw and the Stock Glock has a Snap-On Plastic Cap!!

Edited July 24, 2006 by ysued

[ysued]

on my G17 the endcap from the stock guiderod is fully external. unless the aftermarket guiderods use the stock endcap, there will be a visible external difference.

And IMHO that is less blatant that other things that are happening on Production Division lately!!

i wonder why the vanek trigger pin is an illegal external modification, while a non-stock guiderod sticking out the end of the gun is not.

Vanek Trigger Pin --- External.

Guiderod --- internal.

Off course that's only a WAG......

What was the deal with the Vanek??

Did they have to move the Trigger pin or something??

If so that is a major modification!!

Light Trigger Pulls are not for me, I'm afraid I might shoot off something Important!!

Guiderod --- internal.

not all of it...

The part that counts is internal!

I fyou wanted to be senaky you could put a Glock Guide Rod Cap on a tungsten Rod and nobody would notice!!

The ISMI Rod with an ISMI Spring is only .6011 of an ounce heavier than the stock Glock system!!

Like I've said before, more blatant attempts to circunvent rules have gone through int he past, the little Scre cap on the front of an ISMI Rod is not that much of a deal, but then, I could thread on a stock Glock end-cap

[driver8M3]

ysued's pictures show a clear external modification. the rules dont specifically allow replacement guiderods (as they do sights and barrels, for instance), so i'm curious about why this external modification is allowed.

yes, vanek moved the trigger pin...

[Nemo]

Driver,

Yamil went through the motions, he submitted his question and the part to the NROI and got the approval. It's all good! Now everybody that want to use a metal guide rod, which provides an easier way to change recoil springs, can do so without fear of been moved to open at the next state or area match.

I have never seen the Vanek modification. When you say he relocated the trigger spring, we're talking about filling the factory trigger pin hole in the frame and drilling another one. Right? That's definitely an external mod.

The clear external difference in ysued's pictures that you point out, in my opinion, is not an external modification. It's more a difference in configuration of the internal part, the guide rod. It's the same configuration difference between Glock stock sights and Heinie sights... The same, but different.

It's all good!

[ysued]

Driver,

Yamil went through the motions, he submitted his question and the part to the NROI and got the approval. It's all good! Now everybody that want to use a metal guide rod, which provides an easier way to change recoil springs, can do so without fear of been moved to open at the next state or area match.

I have never seen the Vanek modification. When you say he relocated the trigger spring, we're talking about filling the factory trigger pin hole in the frame and drilling another one. Right? That's definitely an external mod.

The clear external difference in ysued's pictures that you point out, in my opinion, is not an external modification. It's more a difference in configuration of the internal part, the guide rod. It's the same configuration difference between Glock stock sights and Heinie sights... The same, but different.

It's all good!

Nemo, Great analogy with the Heinie Sights!!

Like he said, I modified nothing, the part is just different!!

And like Nemo, I don't have any experience with the Vanek Trigger, but if you have to Drill a Hole, and Cover the previous Trigger Hole, you have now a MODIFIED FRAME!!! And that bu definition is no longer Legal for Production!!

I asked here first, I got great answers, but then just sent the part to john Amidon for a final clarification, he tested it and Approved it!!

Thanks for your Underwater, Revolver Shooting Insight

Edited July 24, 2006 by ysued

[Nemo]

Thanks for your Underwater, Revolver Shooting Insight

No problem whatsoever, my dearest CLOSET MALL NINJA friend!

[driver8M3]

hey, i'm happy for you that JA gave you the answer you wanted. i use a tungston rod in my G34. i dont have anything against anyone using aftermarket guiderods in production. i'm just having a hard time finding a logical pattern in some of these rulings. also, you guys have a couple of things wrong.

1. vanek drilled a new hole in the trigger itself, not the frame.

2. the sights analogy might not be so appropriate. the rules specifically allow changing your sights. therefore sights are specifically exempted from the rule against external modifications. there is no mention at all in the current rules about using an aftermarket guiderod. therefore, there is no exemption from the rule against external modifications.

here is what JA himself said in the vanek ruling:

The Vanek trigger, much like the Speed Bump trigger, has an external modification that makes it illegal for Production division. The Speed Bump trigger has the travel screw mounted to the rear of the trigger and is visible externally, the Vanek trigger, has relocated the pivot pin about 3/16" above the factory specs, and has filled in the original hole with a black material that is still visible on inspection.

that screw in the new guiderod is clearly visible externally. so, why is that acceptable?

[ysued]

hey, i'm happy for you that JA gave you the answer you wanted. i use a tungston rod in my G34. i dont have anything against anyone using aftermarket guiderods in production. i'm just having a hard time finding a logical pattern in some of these rulings. also, you guys have a couple of things wrong.

1. vanek drilled a new hole in the trigger itself, not the frame.

2. the sights analogy might not be so appropriate. the rules specifically allow changing your sights. therefore sights are specifically exempted from the rule against external modifications. there is no mention at all in the current rules about using an aftermarket guiderod. therefore, there is no exemption from the rule against external modifications.

here is what JA himself said in the vanek ruling:

The Vanek trigger, much like the Speed Bump trigger, has an external modification that makes it illegal for Production division. The Speed Bump trigger has the travel screw mounted to the rear of the trigger and is visible externally, the Vanek trigger, has relocated the pivot pin about 3/16" above the factory specs, and has filled in the original hole with a black material that is still visible on inspection.

that screw in the new guiderod is clearly visible externally. so, why is that acceptable?

Well....

Both Nemo and I didn't know what made the Vanek Triger Illegal, then you had to Drill a Trigger, right??

Here's John's response to the ISMI:

Hi Yamil,

Tested the guide rod today, cannot see any reason that it would not be allowed in Production division.

You can use this email as authorization if you would like, but the metal guide rod is legal in Production.

Regards,

John Amidon

Director of NROI

What can I say??

Of course you can put up the $100.00 and Arbitrate his decision, I don't have a horse on this race!! The only reason I wanted to use it is because it's a pain in the Arse to change recoil springs on the factory Glock Rod, and I wanted to use an ISMI 15 Lb spring on it!!

It's a heck of a lot easier to do these changes on the ISMI rod!!

What tungsten rod are you using that is so different from the ISMI, the fact that you can't see it on your G34 and you can see my ISMI on my G17??

BTW, how much does your Tungsten Rod weigh???

Does it weigh more than 875 Grains??

If so, it's Illegal for Production, unless you managed to remove weight from your G34!!

By the Rules, you can not add more than 2 (TWO) Ounces to the Factory Weight!!!

16 Maximum weight Yes, 2 ounces over factory specified

Edited July 24, 2006 by ysued

[ysued]

Thanks for your Underwater, Revolver Shooting Insight

No problem whatsoever, my dearest CLOSET MALL NINJA friend!

Geez, wore my Black Jammies to a match once, and now I'm a Mall Ninja??

Y

[Chuck Anderson]

My guess is the difference comes because the G34 slide is longer than the G17 and the guide rod is the same length. That means that no part of the guide rod is external on a G34.

As far as the Vanek ruling. There is a huge thread on the forum regarding this. It was probably the fastest growing thread that I've seen and caused a lot of hard feelings. John's ruling on this was that a small hole on the trigger pivot was ruled therefore making it an external modification. I'm not kidding, I had to compare guns side to side to even see this modification. And I've worked on several hundred Glocks.

The guide rod is as much an external modification as the Speed Bump and the Vanek. The reason for the consternation is that these two rulings directly contradict each other. One moved a pivot hole, the other added a screw head out the end of the gun.

I don't have a problem with the guide rods, and I'd like to see them available to be used, in fact I'll probably have one in before Nationals. But, I really don't know why they should be legal.

[ysued]

My guess is the difference comes because the G34 slide is longer than the G17 and the guide rod is the same length. That means that no part of the guide rod is external on a G34.

IMHO, the rule that applies to one gun within one division should apply to all!!

The fact that you can't see one should not matter!!

This would lead to If you can't see it, you ain't cheating mentality!!

As far as the Vanek ruling. There is a huge thread on the forum regarding this. It was probably the fastest growing thread that I've seen and caused a lot of hard feelings. John's ruling on this was that a small hole on the trigger pivot was ruled therefore making it an external modification. I'm not kidding, I had to compare guns side to side to even see this modification. And I've worked on several hundred Glocks.

I'm still not well versed on the vanek Issue!! I guess the fact that I want to Run my G17 as close to stock as possible is possibly the reason I never looked into another Trigger possibility!! The reason I looked into the ISMI Rod is because it's the best rod I could find that allows you to change springs rapidly and without too much hassle!!

The guide rod is as much an external modification as the Speed Bump and the Vanek. The reason for the consternation is that these two rulings directly contradict each other. One moved a pivot hole, the other added a screw head out the end of the gun.

IMHO the guide Rod is not external, it's internal, the onluy difference is what shows is different!! Ile i said before, If I would snap the Glock end into the ISMI Rod, or even a heavier Rod that violated the 2 Oz rule, who would notice??

My intention is not to cheat anyone, I just wanted to be able to swap springs with ease!!

Heck I got popped for having a Plastic Glock Plug at Area 3 last year!! The reason i didn't know is that I never read John Amidon's Column in Front Sight!! I should have kept up with the newest Rulings on the Division I was intending to shoot in!!

I don't have a problem with the guide rods, and I'd like to see them available to be used, in fact I'll probably have one in before Nationals. But, I really don't know why they should be legal.

Well, they are legal now!!

I'll be using one from now on, I'll be doing lots of testing with different Recoil Springs until I fins one that I like.

One question, didn't they make a new vanek trigger that doesn't have the need to reposition the Trigger Pivot Pin that would be legal for Production??

Edited July 26, 2006 by ysued

[Chuck Anderson]

Yep, there's a new Vanek without the trigger pin moved.

The difference with the 34 and the 17 is that the guide rod doesn't protrude, it's not external.

Before you disagree that the Vanek ruling is different than this, read the Vanek ruling and see the pictures. An informed argument might change my mind. Bottom line. The Vanek ruling said if it's externally visible, it's illegal. The guide rod is just as visible as the Vanek, if not more so. The trigger has most of it's mass inside and concealed, just like the guide rod.

As far as putting a stock Glock end on, yes that would make it no longer different externally. Like I said, I don't care one way or the other about the guide rods. I just find it interested the rules decisions that seem to contradict each other. Unless someone can explain how they don't.