25yards

[hidurango]

How do you get a pistol sighted in at 25yards. (non adjustable sights) Is this something you would go to a gunsmith for ?

Thanks

[kevin c]

I won't review everything, but here's some info to think on.

You could go to a smith, but there are a few issues with that approach, such as the expense, ammo and time that it will take for the smith to get the gun back to you. It might be better (and more fun) to DIY.

More important is that everyone's "zero" is different. The smith, or your best friend, or the local grand poobah of shooting at your range could have it sighted in perfectly for themselves, but it could be way off for you.

If a person is new to shooting altogether, though, it might be difficult to shoot consistent enough groups to get a zero, so, in that case, it may be necessary to have somebody else do it and accept that it may not be dead on for the gun's owner. If the hassle factor of what is outlined below is too high, then getting a smith to do it is an option.

Some would also argue that if you need to involve a smith, you might want to get him to install an adjustable rear sight rather than sight in the gun. That would make sighting it in yourself a whole lot easier.

To DIY, you'll need a solid shooting position (off sandbags, rather than unsupported), a nonmarring drift punch, a hammer, and maybe a file and blue. The punch and hammer are for windage adjustments. The file is for increasing elevation. If you don't want to file and reblue your FS, then you need to be able to replace it with one of another height, which will be necessary anyway if the current set of fixed rear and FS shoot too high.

If your gun has tritium inserts in the rear sight, you need to be careful with the hammer and punch - you can easily crack the vials holding the tritium. Brownells and other resources carry special sight adjusting tools that reduce the risk of damage to the inserts (and to the finish of the gun and the sight itself, if you're like me and aren't accurate with the hammer ). It probably isn't a good idea to file on such a sight, either.

If you're new to the gun, you might want to pull the target in close to be sure that the gun is close to POI (Point Of Impact) on POA (Point Of Aim). If you're off the paper at 25 yards, you may not even know which direction to correct in.

The basic corrections:

If you hit to the right or left, drift the rear sight in the direction you want to move the POI to. If you hit low or high, the same applies, if the rear sight is adjustable. If not, then the FS needs to be shorter to raise the POI, and taller to lower it.

Food for thought.

Kevin C.

Edited May 15, 2006 by kevin c

[open17]

Truly non adjustable? Or drift adjustable rear?

A couple of things that apply to both-- Sight it in yourself. Everyone holds/hits a little

different. Do it off of sandbags, but do not rest the gun on the bags. Hold the gun as

you normally would, and rest your hands/wrists on the bags.

Windage (left and right stuff). Drift adjustable rear: Drift the sight in the direction you want to change the bullet impact.

Non adjustable rear. About the only thing you can do that I know of is widen the rear notch on one side, or narrow the front blade on one side. File the side you want the bullet to go to. Not as bad as it sounds, most iron sights could use a little more light on each

side of the front sight.

Elevation. Do you reload? Within reason, you can adjust elevation with ammunition.

Heavier/slower will impact higher. Lighter/faster will impact lower.

Otherwise, it's back to the file. Shorten the front sight to raise the point of impact.

Sometimes you can file the top of the rear to lower point of impact a bit, depending on the sight configuration. Go slow, it's a lot harder to put the metal back on.

[bountyhunter]

Some would also argue that if you need to involve a smith, you might want to get him to install an adjustable rear sight rather than sight in the gun. That would make sighting it in yourself a whole lot easier.

Kevin C.

That will save you a lot of headaches in the long run. Even changing ammo will make the point of impact go up and down. Adjustable sights are the way to go.

[kevin c]

Well, even though I suggested adjustables, I don't change them much after the first sighting in. I like them mainly because they're so much easier and more precise than whaling away with a hammer and punch, with the added risk of marking up or even damaging the sight.

I polled this a while back (whether people really adjusted their sights frequently), and here are the replies I got:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=19857&hl=sight

[Bren]

How do you get a pistol sighted in at 25yards. (non adjustable sights) Is this something you would go to a gunsmith for ?

Thanks

I don't recall, in 20 years of shooting, ever buying a new, decent quality, fixed sight pistol that needed a sight adjustment out of the box - I've shot and carried, on duty, off, in competition, etc., Colt, S&W, Sig, Beretta, Glock, Browning, Para-Ordnance, etc. and they all came out of the box hitting where they are supposed to.

As far as sighting in or testing sights, if it is needed, you should take as much human factor out of it as possible - make the sights look where the gun sends the bullets NOT WHERE YOU SEND THE BULLETS. If the place you shoot with the gun is different from the place the gun shoots from a ransom rest or something like that, CORRECT YOUR SHOOTING, NOT YOUR SIGHTS. If you compensate for shooting error by zeroing the gun to yourself, as some suggested, you will never be able to shoot well (and you will never be able to compensate for your shooting problem at all distances/speeds/angles).

Everyone's zero being different (especially with a handgun), is just plain not true - it's a myth based on a lack of training. The sights are attached to the gun, not the shooter. If they are aligned with where the barrel sends the bullets, than anyone who picks the gun up and aligns the sights and the target and properly pulls the trigger will hit in the same place. People who fail to do that are making a mistake in their shooting fundamentals.

[kevin c]

I don't recall, in 20 years of shooting, ever buying a new, decent quality, fixed sight pistol that needed a sight adjustment out of the box - I've shot and carried, on duty, off, in competition, etc., Colt, S&W, Sig, Beretta, Glock, Browning, Para-Ordnance, etc. and they all came out of the box hitting where they are supposed to.

As far as sighting in or testing sights, if it is needed, you should take as much human factor out of it as possible - make the sights look where the gun sends the bullets NOT WHERE YOU SEND THE BULLETS. If the place you shoot with the gun is different from the place the gun shoots from a ransom rest or something like that, CORRECT YOUR SHOOTING, NOT YOUR SIGHTS. If you compensate for shooting error by zeroing the gun to yourself, as some suggested, you will never be able to shoot well (and you will never be able to compensate for your shooting problem at all distances/speeds/angles).

Everyone's zero being different (especially with a handgun), is just plain not true - it's a myth based on a lack of training. The sights are attached to the gun, not the shooter. If they are aligned with where the barrel sends the bullets, than anyone who picks the gun up and aligns the sights and the target and properly pulls the trigger will hit in the same place. People who fail to do that are making a mistake in their shooting fundamentals.

I'd be interested, then, to know how the guns are zero'ed at the factory. All off a mechanical rest that allows sight adjustments? That might be mechanically reproducible for the machine used, but it is not the human hand, which varies from person to person. If done by human beings, then I don' know how "perfect" their technique might be, and if their perfect technique is the same as my "perfect" technique . Either way, I'd allow for some variation from how I use the sights, whether "pumpkin on post", one inch high, or for whatever minor flaw I have in my technique, until such time as I remove it.

I definitely have zero'ed a gun (adjustable sights newly installed, so they probably weren't at the factory zero) with one load, then shot another load out of the same gun at the same target, to find the new group several inches off the first, and not just vertically. The gun will then go back to the first POI if I use the original load.

I guess my experience is different from yours. My guns do vary for POI, based on not just who shoots them and how, which is the human element I think you're talking about, but also because of purely mechanical variables like the load used.

[shred]

+1. Different loads with the same POA will sometimes go different places. I see this in my Open guns with FMJ bullets versus JHPs-- Montana Gold FMJ's or Armscor factory FMJ's at 15 yards group about 3 inches higher and 2 inches right of Hornady HAPs at similar velocities. Interestingly the Hornady FMJ impacts pretty close to the Hornady HAP.

[kevin c]

The biggest difference I saw was between MG's reportedly very hard brass jacket, and copper plated bullets of the same weight, even though loaded to the same case volume with the same charge of powder. 'course, the bullet jump at ignition will be different, and I don't know how much that might affect POI.

[fryeg7]

both the pistols i spend the most time with shoot exactly where i like them to from the factory (both are CZ's). they are different models with different slide lengths, but both shoot the exact same with the same sight picture.

frye