Nroi Ruling On Vanek Trigger For Production

[Jake Di Vita]

Look at it this way. What you are saying is "action work" means only working on the existing action with factory parts.

As soon as you modify a factory part in any way...it is no longer factory. This includes something even as basic as cutting a single coil of a spring. So by your standards of what the ruling says, we have just totally disallowed trigger work of any kind.

[Chriss Grube]

Daniel,

21.4 is a major part the problem Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed.

Ect. is a piss poor word to use when you are trying to define a rule. It leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation which is the problem here.

THERE IS NO list of approved mods. We have a set of none specific rules that are not clearly defined.

JA has already stated above that internal is fair game. Bruce disagrees.

Your statement "I would take this as meaning "Action work" as in working on the existing action not "Action replacement with after market parts" therefore making the Vanek trigger illegal even without the external mod" is your opinion which is different than JA's. Again wide open.

Your idea of the gun inspection will slow the match as each gun is detail stripped to compare parts. What happens when the guy doing the inspection drops a part in the dirt or loses a spring or the gun pukes after jerky puts it together wrong after inspection? You send somebody to strip my gun he better damn well be an expert and have the paper to prove it.

Contrary to what some of the posts have put if it isn't listed as illegal I'll do it if it gives me an advantage. We talk about the roots of the sport...aint no rules on the street but winning. Rememeber young grasshopper Fair is a place you go to ride rides, eat cotton candy and avoid stepping in cowshit!

[GeorgeInNePa]

There doesn't have to be an expert gun Guru who knows everything about every gun at every match to examine every "Production" gun and determine if it's legal or not. What needs to be done, as the rules state;

Here's your list Chriss:

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or

have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type.

January 2004 Edition Rule Book • 97

98 • January 2004 Edition Rule Book

21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as

original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not

allowed.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed.

21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for

the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber

sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously

mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag release

or size reduction.

22. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will

be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification:

ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully

cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos

may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters

may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

The B.O.D. needs to require that every Production shooter carry a Product data sheet from the manufacturer of their firearm for the firearm they are using (These are very easy to aquire) and have a stage like the chrono stage for each match where all the firearms are inspected and if anything on the product data sheet that is not allowed per the rules doesn't jive that shooter is moved to Open division.

Also, the rule states: 21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed.

I would take this as meaning "Action work" as in working on the existing action not "Action replacement with after market parts" therefore making the Vanek trigger illegal even without the external mod.

Again, there's nothing confusing about the rules it's just that there's too many out there trying to "Game" the rule book.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

If I do a trigger job purely to enhance trigger pull, is it legal? Yes or no? Please keep in mind while answering the gun in question is completely reliable as is.

Please define and/or explain the same rule in such a way as to be understandable to a new USPSA member when he asks, "what can I do to my gun?".

I would take this as meaning "Action work" as in working on the existing action not "Action replacement with after market parts" therefore making the Vanek trigger illegal even without the external mod.

Please go back and read the thread. The Vanek trigger is a colection of FACTORY Glock parts that have been polished and slightly modified.

Again, there's nothing confusing about the rules it's just that there's too many out there trying to "Game" the rule book.

It is normal human nature to look for an edge, whether it is real or percieved. Competitive people, whether shooters or racers or whatever, will work in the gray areas.

[bufit323]

3. Polishing and deburring the parts is allowed. Changing the shape or design of the parts is not allowed.

Isn't polishing and changing shape really the same thing? How much metal is too much metal, still too subjective.

[Bigbadaboom]

i love this...your 2 statements above are completely contradictory.

you say there is nothing confusing about the rule book...yet your previous statement shows that your understanding of the rule book is not the same as john amidons. amidon said that moving the pivot point is illegal. since he didnt mention any of the other modifications, cant i assume he means they are legal (contrary to YOUR opinion).

Assume if you wish but that is why we are here in the first place. Someone "Assumed" that the Vanek trigger was O.K. and got "Donkey Punched" when the ruling came back. The ruling was over the "Trigger" not the "Action" I believe that if the action portion itself was ruled on my interpretation would be correct. I'm looking at the rules as they stand on their own merit. I'm not looking at them as if I were trying to circumvent them.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

If I do a trigger job purely to enhance trigger pull, is it legal? Yes or no? Please keep in mind while answering the gun in question is completely reliable as is.

How is a 2 lb. trigger more Reliable than a 5 lb.? I take reliable to mean reliably function. I don't take reliable to mean "Lighten the trigger so I can shoot more accurately". I want my trigger to be reliably consitant. That means that it breaks the same way every time and changing it so that it's lighter is "Gaming" that rule no matter what kind of syrup you coat it with.

If a Glock trigger isn't reliable out of the box then it's the last gun I would buy.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Gregory_k]

Just change the rules. Out of box gun no mods nothing. Pistol must be as came from manuf.

If you want production as an entry level in USPSA, then no modifications should be legal.

[GeorgeInNePa]

i love this...your 2 statements above are completely contradictory.

you say there is nothing confusing about the rule book...yet your previous statement shows that your understanding of the rule book is not the same as john amidons. amidon said that moving the pivot point is illegal. since he didnt mention any of the other modifications, cant i assume he means they are legal (contrary to YOUR opinion).

Assume if you wish but that is why we are here in the first place. Someone "Assumed" that the Vanek trigger was O.K. and got "Donkey Punched" when the ruling came back. The ruling was over the "Trigger" not the "Action" I believe that if the action portion itself was ruled on my interpretation would be correct. I'm looking at the rules as they stand on their own merit. I'm not looking at them as if I were trying to circumvent them.

21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

If I do a trigger job purely to enhance trigger pull, is it legal? Yes or no? Please keep in mind while answering the gun in question is completely reliable as is.

How is a 2 lb. trigger more Reliable than a 5 lb.? I take reliable to mean reliably function. I don't take reliable to mean "Lighten the trigger so I can shoot more accurately". I want my trigger to be reliably consitant. That means that it breaks the same way every time and changing it so that it's lighter is "Gaming" that rule no matter what kind of syrup you coat it with.

If a Glock trigger isn't reliable out of the box then it's the last gun I would buy.

It was a simple yes or no question. By your answer what I can deduce is that you would say no. I say the rule is not clear and that trigger jobs are fine. Keep in mind, John's opinion centered around the movement of the pivot pin. He had ample opertunity to make a ruling on the rest of the trigger job, he chose not to.

"Gaming" is not against the rules. Your moral judgements mean nothing to me, if it's not prohibited, it's legal. You are going to have put up with it whether you like it or not.

Edited March 15, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[Bigbadaboom]

"Gaming" is not against the rules. Your moral judgements mean nothing to me, if it's not prohibited, it's legal. You are going to have put up with it whether you like it or not.

Not if I'm R.O.ing you. If I'm the R.O. and I deduct that someone is trying to circumvent the rules then I will make it an issue. There are too many shooters out there trying to get into "Production" division because the get their butts kicked in Limited and think they can get some super high speed, low drag custom work done to their Iron and all of a sudden win the game. When they are told that customizing a production gun is against the rules they start trying to "SPIN" the rules around in order to get away with what they've done. That's what this is all about. I don't expect those who want to be able to use the Vanek trigger to agree with me but you can't show me where my logic is flawed. It's been tried on here and no one can do it. I read "If it's not prohibited then it's legal." and other retorts but they hold no substance because the rules specifically show that what is referenced in this thread "IS" illegal. The only way for someone to disprove my logic is to show me where the rules are wrong which can't be done because the rules are the rules. No matter how much you argue it you can't make the rules wrong and you can't use the Vanek Trigger in Production.

[Chriss Grube]

Daniel, Daniel,

Let's not revert to a name calling baseless allegation type behavior. I would expect more from someone of your obvious high moral standards. Please remember the RO creed you are there to assist the shooter and if need be enforce the rules as written not what your personal belief is. Please refrain from making ridiculous statements we have too many ill informed range nazis already. I would suggest you read the posts of emails from John and if you still do not grasp the concept please email him for your own clarifications before you do something incorrect and ruin a shooters match making an incorrect call.

As far as shooting production to hide give me a break. Production is a place to play up here when it is cold and we don't feel like picking brass out of the snow.

I see your are a religous man...I'd be real interested in your thoughts on the 10 commandments specifically the though shall not kill one. Is it ok to take a life in certain instances or not? ponder that then reconsider the rule book.

[GeorgeInNePa]

"Gaming" is not against the rules. Your moral judgements mean nothing to me, if it's not prohibited, it's legal. You are going to have put up with it whether you like it or not.

Not if I'm R.O.ing you. If I'm the R.O. and I deduct that someone is trying to circumvent the rules then I will make it an issue. There are too many shooters out there trying to get into "Production" division because the get their butts kicked in Limited and think they can get some super high speed, low drag custom work done to their Iron and all of a sudden win the game. When they are told that customizing a production gun is against the rules they start trying to "SPIN" the rules around in order to get away with what they've done. That's what this is all about. I don't expect those who want to be able to use the Vanek trigger to agree with me but you can't show me where my logic is flawed. It's been tried on here and no one can do it. I read "If it's not prohibited then it's legal." and other retorts but they hold no substance because the rules specifically show that what is referenced in this thread "IS" illegal. The only way for someone to disprove my logic is to show me where the rules are wrong which can't be done because the rules are the rules. No matter how much you argue it you can't make the rules wrong and you can't use the Vanek Trigger in Production.

Again, I would invite you to read the thread. I've already taken my Vanek trigger bar out of my gun. I did it the day the ruling came out, not a week after when the ruling took effect. The rest of my trigger job stays, because John Amindon didn't say trigger jobs are illegal.

As far as hiding in Production, I'm better in Limited than I'll ever be in Production.

I hope you use the rules in the book to RO and not your own idea of what the rules should be.

[Bigbadaboom]

Let's not revert to a name calling baseless allegation type behavior.

I don't have the faintest idea where that statement is coming from.

I am referencing to the rules on their own merit here. I am not a Range Natzi and there are several on this forum who can attest to that. I am a "Range Officer" for USPSA (A43119). I know the rules pretty well and I know their meaning. When I come across a rule that I feal is questionable I seek clarity. Snide condescending remarks towards me such as the above are not appropriate. I have made no personal attacks and I have called no one any derogatory names. If my statements leave a sting then maybe those feeling it need to look inside. If my statements don't apply to you then why respond?

I will stand by my statement that this is all about people trying to circumvent the rules and getting caught. Oh yeah, I've done the same thing.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Flexmoney]

TIME OUT.