Round Dumping And Reloading From Slide Lock Vs.

[PJONES5]

That's simply not my experience. Not that either of our experiences is all-encompassing, but in my experience it's a rule that's almost invariably followed. People whose justification for round dumping is "Everbody does it," again in my experience, are kidding themselves.

Thats my experience also,here in the Tampa Bay area I would say 99% of our Shooters follow the rules and play the game as it is intended to be played.

Pat

[jkelly]

It's a poor rule and like most poor rules it's pretty much ignored. I've never called it and I never will.---ME

The rule is almost universally ignored by the SOs as it entails determining a shooters intent by their actions. There is no measurement standard as there is with cover, concealment or equipment. There is no conclusive evidence left as with a dropped loaded magazine.

At best it's an uneducated guess and my sense of fair play will not allow me to penalize a shooter based on their not shooting 100% efficiently (i.e. adding a round(s) to a target that doesn't need it and the like).

Which leads to the question of why there is such a harsh penalty for a rule that is neither enforced, nor arguably even violated as asserted by PJones and Duane.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[PJONES5]

It's a poor rule and like most poor rules it's pretty much ignored. I've never called it and I never will.---ME

The rule is almost universally ignored by the SOs as it entails determining a shooters intent by their actions. There is no measurement standard as there is with cover, concealment or equipment. There is no conclusive evidence left as with a dropped loaded magazine.

At best it's an uneducated guess and my sense of fair play will not allow me to penalize a shooter based on their not shooting 100% efficiently (i.e. adding a round(s) to a target that doesn't need it and the like).

Which leads to the question of why there is such a harsh penalty for a rule that is neither enforced, nor arguably even violated as asserted by PJones and Duane.

Respectfully,

jkelly

Good Question jkelly.

I don't have a answer.

pat

[Bones]

My humble advise is not to do it (dishonorable)- much less openly admit to it (stupid)- in Springfield.

Craig

Edited January 10, 2006 by Bones

[jkelly]

Craig,

Sorry I missed the ICORE match, how did go?

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Bones]

Hello Mr. Kelly.

Although it would have been better with you there, it still went fine - 53 total competitors.

Our next match is 4 Feb - hope you can make it.

Not a dumped round in the place.

Craig

Signing up for Sunday in MA States/New Bedford

[jm951]

Ok, so IDPA is all gollyfied tactical. Now if I dump a round or two, I could incur a penalty from the SO with a diploma in mind reading. I HAVE seen guys design a COF just to suit their arms only, how's that for being fair!

Now why in the world would the poohbahs that wrote the rules think that dumping a round or two is not tactically sound (double tap with insurance round comes to mind) when in the very same rule book, they limit capacity to 10 rounds. Sorry guys, in the real world, my gun holds a few more than 10 and I'll not go into a fire fight with less than max ammo at any time if I can help it. If I was really intent on tactical, all mags would be topped off at all times. Extra rounds always sent downrange to keep the BG's head down while I move. Lastly, my handgun is only a means to a long gun, preferably a 12ga. And finally, if it ain't solved in 2 mags, I'm looking to retreat or call in an airstrike.

I'm not a cheat, but when everybody realizes that this is just a game, and not some tribute to all things tactical, then I might pay more attention to the anti-dumpers.

Also keep in mind that dumping much more than 1 or 2 rounds is actually counter productive. It might be better time wise to go ahead and do a mag change with retention in that case.

Finally, just go out, shoot, have a good time on the range. Leave the whining to the crybabies.

[jkelly]

Craig,

Thank you for your kindness. I've PMed you because I've brought us off topic.

But while we are off topic, I hope Mrs. Bones enjoyed that S&W1911 she won!

Respectfully,

jkelly

[kdmoore]

I'm going to quote you out of original order to organize my responses.

Ok, so IDPA is all gollyfied tactical......

when in the very same rule book, they limit capacity to 10 rounds.....

Lastly, my handgun is only a means to a long gun, preferably a 12ga. And finally, if it ain't solved in 2 mags, I'm looking to retreat or call in an airstrike.

I think it's pretty obvious that IDPA is a sport. Period. It is described as being more tactical in nature than some of the alternatives out there. Because it's a sport, and because it happens on a range with many spectators, there are many aspects that are less than ideal for a truly "tactical situation". This doesn't mean that rules that try to adhere to tactics shouldn't be used when possible. But there are plenty of concessions because this is a sport.

One of those is leveling the playing field by limiting mag capacity. This allows those who live in mag oppressed states to compete with the rest of us.

It also allows folks to chose a firearm that they ACTUALLY carry to compete with the assurance that thier 13 round hipower has a fighting chance against the Para p18. To put it in otherwords, It couldn't be any further from "tacticality" than to force all folks to chose 9mm hi caps to play in ESP and SSP (18 round paras that are sa and lda), 8 shot revolvers, and 14 round .45's for the CDP. While I'm sure these firearms are carried by a few, they are not your typical fare.

Lastly, sounds like you'd like for all scenarios to be built toward fighting toward a long gun. I prefer the diversity that we currently see.

Extra rounds always sent downrange to keep the BG's head down while I move.

Of course you realize that you would be responsible for each and every one of those little death pills that you launch. I just want to highlight this as we are on a public forum.

Now why in the world would the poohbahs that wrote the rules think that dumping a round or two is not tactically sound (double tap with insurance round comes to mind)

Now we are on topic. You do realize that double taps and failure drills ARE PART OF MOST COF's? Rarely do I see a target (other than steel) NOT required to have 2 and often 3 rounds. Thats why we are talking about DUMPING rounds (i.e. shooting not to nuetralize targets, but to better time a reload.) Put another way, you've just put 2 com and 1 to head, but you shoot again to better time your reload? That just doesn't seem "tactically sound"

To be clear here, Round dumping is NOT making up missed shots. It is NOT shooting extra at difficult target presentations (long distance, swingers/movers, partially hidden, etc). All of these are valid reasons to shoot more than the minimum, and a shooter may want the insurance.

Round dumping is wasting rounds to time your reloads. That is why it is almost impossible to call, it involves the motivation of the shooter.

I HAVE seen guys design a COF just to suit their arms only, how's that for being fair! ....

Finally, just go out, shoot, have a good time on the range. Leave the whining to the crybabies.

I'm confused how a MD can slant a playing field when we all shoot within divisions? Maybe set up a 7 round friendly stage knowing most CDP's would have 8's? Set up a 5 shot friendly course knowing most SSR's shoot 6? Ahhh, probably set up a 9 round friendly stage and is shooting a 9mm 1911? Otherwise, you are shooting capped at 10 rounds as is most everone else in your division.

I'm not a MD, nor do I play one on the internet, but I'm pretty good friends with quite a few. If it's any consolation to you, that may be one of the most thankless jobs out there. Regardless, you might try some constructive criticism, laced with an offer to help? Whatever you do, don't whine about it here (couldn't resist that one)

And for the record, I consider this rule unenforcible. Short of an overt statement from the shooter, it takes imagination for me to envision a situation where I could make this call.

[jm951]

At one club I know of, a shotgun/rilfe COF was designed in a 3 gun match that timed perfectly with 8 rounds. Just what rifle has 8 round capacity and guess who was shooting it. Coincidence, I don't think so. Let's carry this guy's modus operandi a bit further, it's like designing stages around a 6rd string and limiting everybody there to revolver class timing and reloads just because this one guy wants to finish high up in the standings with his revolver and he will issue a FTDR for not going by his ground rules. I have seriously thought about going back home and not competing if I see this joker design another COF.

Yes, I prefer 3 gun, but shoot pistol for practice, both IDPA and IPSC and because I travel as part of my job, I get to shoot club matches in several states. I see problems in both camps when the shooters lose sight of the glaring fact that they are both games. Real world, if I can't resolve the situation in the first mag, definately the second, it's time to retreat or call for back up. Back to the little pills of death downrange, are you, ever in a real situation, going to keep shooting to the degree that some of these COFs are set up for? Bear in mind also that in many states, you have an obligation to seriously consider retreat except under very rare, immediately life threatening circumstances. So that how many rounds thing doesn't hold water with me one bit. It IS a game and nothing more.

Back to dumping, if the COF comes up to 9 rounds with all targets successfully engaged, I'm dumping that last round on target and reload from slide lock, depending on what comes next. Cheating? I don't think so. Back to "real world" if it ain't over by the end of the first mag, I'm very seriously thinking retreat or backup.

As for real world stuff, ask anybody who's ever been there, done that, "were you counting each round and did you seriously consider your backstop before shooting?" The truthful answer is that adrenaline flows like a torrent and if the shooter is being truthful, they'll tell you that they kept shooting until the threat was neutralized and they might think it was two, maybe three, but could have been more, let's look for brass and check the rounds left in the mag. If you ever have the misfortune to get into that situation, better not to talk to <anybody> without a real lawyer. I have a good friend had to shoot a BG for real several years back. He wouldn't even talk to a cop until he had a lawyer present and fortunately, it was a totally justified shoot. I asked him later if he knew how many he fired, his answer was- "I fired until the sob quit and ran, don't know how many that was." Turns out he was one round short of slide lock on the first mag.

But back to topic, I think the thing that rubs many the wrong way is how serious some in IDPA, or IPSC for that matter, take themselves. As an observer of both, IDPA strikes me at times as too interested and serious about what's tactical or not while IPSC diehards view IDPA as guys who can't shoot fast and make up rules to slow people down. Bottom line again, they're both games. I shoot both but when some self inflated SO or RO either tweaks the match in his favor or to get at somebody they know shoots that "other game" then I get upset and this round "dumping" thing is an open invitation for mismanagement by those who would teach the "other guys" a lesson about being tactical.

Maybe I get caught in the middle because I shoot both and occasionally diehards on either side get bent, but I shoot these games for enjoyment. If I wasn't having a good time at the match, I wouldn't be back. Nuff said, the Dillon beckons.

[Precision40]

Theres one way to do away with round dumping, simply make every stage Limited Vickers Even the field course, what the hell

[revchuck]

I'm confused how a MD can slant a playing field when we all shoot within divisions?

You're correct, we all shoot within divisons. However, when you shoot revolver, you get used to your weapon's limitations being forgotten.

Example: I once shot a course of fire that required 4 rounds, then a mandatory TL, then 8 rounds, and another mandatory TL. I didn't enjoy that one much.

From the USPSA side, I shot a shotgun match with stages designed by a guy who had recently installed a speedloader on his 1100. The first stage required starting with an empty shotgun...go figure.

Most stage designers do put forth some effort to make stages reasonable for all shooters. That's what makes the other few so noticable.

[jkelly]

Theres one way to do away with round dumping, simply make every stage Limited Vickers Even the field course, what the hell .---Precision40

Or they could require you to retain your empty magazines.

It's not TACTICAL but neither is picking up a dropped magazine in the open.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Duane Thomas]

I think this one has been pretty much talked out. We're drifting off topic. If anyone can come up with anything constructive that hasn't already been said, feel free to PM me and I'll consider reopening it.