Reloads

[Overhung]

When I video'ed myself at the last Georgia IDPA Match, I noticed that most of my operations are at belly button height- meaning that I drop the gun, pull the mag, replace the mag and raise and re-engage.

My best reloads with retention: shoot - reload - shoot is about 3 seconds. I lose some time in reacquirig the sights. I followed some of the better shooters- their guns are in fornt of their eyes.

I taped only one, so I am looking for opinions, during the reload,, after seating a mag, and re-engaging a target, do you turn the gun and extend? Or do you turn the gun as you extend?

It seems that turning then extending would keep th sights in view the longest for a quicker shot, any thoughts?

Dan

[Pierruiggi]

....I followed some of the better shooters- their guns are in fornt of their eyes...

Not necesarely. A lot of them advocate "in your face" reloads, and do a search as this subject was discussed a month ago or so, and the general consensus here was that "in your face realoads" were better. I tend to think that depends on the situation, if I gotta go somewhere while reloading on the move I naturally had the tendency to lower my hands as to let my peripheral vision have a better view of the surroundings. My hands ended up at chest level or so. I thought I was some kind of black sheep until I saw these pictures. IMHO, I consider Travis Tomasie the only one reloading high. I guess we all have different interpretations on what "reloading high" is, but some of them, like Rob Leatham are definetely reloading low. To each his own.

Oh, and I twist the gun as I'm extending, they're not 2 separate actions.

[Flexmoney]

FWIW...Some of those pics are draws, not reloads...and, some might just be the Load and Make Ready dance.

Picture 2...the Glocks sometimes like to be at a certain angle to allow the spent mag to eject nicely. Turtle may still end up bringing the gun up (or down) for the mag insertion part of the reload.

Pic 3... that is a draw from Dave...or, perhaps, the very start of a reload. (He might be hitting the button, but it sure looks like he is pressing out to the target.)

Pic 4 ...that is Leatham on what looks like Load and Make Ready...pic 5 shows him reloading on the clock.

Pic 6 & 7...I don't know if that reload made it in or not...maybe the magwell saved it. MV might have needed a bit more vision on that one.

Pic 8...hard to tell if that is LAMR or on the clock. I have a feeling TJ's reload would look the same either way.

Pic 9...Travis has the reload right up there...you can see a bit of Leatham's reload in the background.

[pac1911]

Pierruiggi-

flex is correct some ofthose shots are on the LAMR etc.

Julie has completed her string

Turtle is reloading

Dave has completed his reload

Robbie LAMR

Robbie Reload

Voight reload

Voight Reload

Travis Reload

TJ reload

Thanks for linking these pics. Keep in mind these are all standing reloads.

Think of geometry.

If the gun stays at eye level, it travels a slightly shorter distance, however the off hand with the fresh mag travels farther.

Come down a bit both hands move an equal distance

Come way down, gun hand moves a lot, mag hand a little.

BALANCE. straight line from full extension to belt line, hands meet in the middle. Chest height see into the magwell...

[Pierruiggi]

Flex and pac; because of the order of those pics (in the gallery where I took them, available through a thread in this forum's gallery section) I think most of those are reloads.

Maybe I slipped up on Goloski's one and she has indeed finished the string...

I think the Leatham one is a reload, and not LAMR, after all, check the guy in the background... Are you allowed to take a sight pic in a shoot off?

The Tomase one is a reload while shooting, I have a video (that I downloaded from these forums, or maybe Steve Anderson's website) and they seem to match. Travis shot against Leatham 3 times, the first time, he stood right of Leatham and won (he didn't even let Leatham hit all the poppers, WOW ); the second time, he stood to the left of Leatham (where the pic I posted was taken, I presume) and lost; and the 3rd time he shot, once again, to the right of Leatham, and lost.

BTW, if you can, check those videos and it appears both reloads (Travis high, Rob low) take somewhat the same time, or at the very least, they are both certainly competitive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate any type of reload (and even if I were, who the f... am I to tell you how to reload?); I'm merely pointing that even known, great, world level shooters have more than one way to skin a cat.

Perhaps my statement of "everyone says to reload high, but only TT does it" may have sounded a bit harsh, but that's how I saw it. Like I said, we all have different conceptions of what "reloading high" is. For me, eye level is too high.

EDIT: Sorry, all that explanation about TT's reload was because I misread Flex's post... It should have been about TJ. Anyways, here's a couple of screenshots I took from a ParaOrd video promoting Para LDA. The video is called Todd Jarrett rapid fire.mov or something like that. Sorry about the image quality, the video's resolution is really small. As you'll certainly notice, the pics are from two different reloads.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Pierruiggi

[Pierruiggi]

Thanks for linking these pics. Keep in mind these are all standing reloads.

Think of geometry.

If the gun stays at eye level, it travels a slightly shorter distance, however the off hand with the fresh mag travels farther.

Come down a bit both hands move an equal distance

Come way down, gun hand moves a lot, mag hand a little.

BALANCE. straight line from full extension to belt line, hands meet in the middle. Chest height see into the magwell...

About linking the pics, you're welcome, but the credit goes to you, for posting them in the gallery section.

About being stationary while these pics were taken, that's my whole point, stationary reloads are always higher than moving reloads, I don't think I ever saw a shooter of any skill level perform a "Tomasie eye level reload" while moving towards (not into) a far away position. Of course, there are people in this forum who shoot on a regular basis with top dogs and have seen this. Heck... some of these top shooters post in here!!! Maybe they can shed some light on their styles.

Geometry wise... well... I'd rather come a bit down with my shooting hand and then make a motion similar to my draw when finishing the reload when getting the gun back on targets, than end up in a position that feels unnatural to me to extend from, like having the gun a couple inches directly in front of my face.

I think we could find advantages and disadvantages in both methods; but I also think there's no denying that both, if practiced to "perfection" are efficient ways.

EDIT: Here's some vidcaps of Phil Strader's reloads. The first ones are from two vids from Steve Anderson's website where Phil shoots 1, reloads, shoots 1. The other one he shoots 2, reloads, shoots 2. The next two vidcaps are from vids I donwloaded about a year ago from Phil's site. The indoor range one is, once again, shoot 2, reload, shoot 2. The one where he's using an open gun is a stage, or so it seems.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Pierruiggi

[davidball]

I don't think I ever saw a shooter of any skill level perform a "Tomasie eye level reload" while moving towards (not into) a far away position.

What I know about reloads, which ain't much:

1. Jake Da Vita performs "eye level reloads" while moving. See Julie Goloski's website and the video of Jake from Area 5. Jake is a force to be dealt with.

2. I have struggled with how to reload for almost two years. I have been working with the "higher" level reload in dry fire of late and found it superior (so far, FOR ME).

3. My understanding is that keeping everything "at the ceiling" is a basic tenet of Max and Travis's teaching (I haven't had the pleasure YET, but I have talked to several who have).

4. I have watched/studied other shooters of a much higher skill level than me (which is not hard to acomplish) and seen as many reload styles as people. Like most of the top level shooters who have written anything have said, try it and see what fits you.

Edited November 23, 2005 by davidball

[Loves2Shoot]

Travis isn't the only one who reloads "high"

I advocate it as being the fastest way for me to do it A lot of the "old timers" reload lower and don't change, because they don't have to

I have reloaded at least 4 different ways over the years and I am consistantly faster when I keep it high, less movement = less time.

[XRe]

The less the gun moves, in theory, the quicker the reload will be (to a point, anyhow - keep the gun at arm's length has other problems). I found that at this point in my development, there's a happy point where everything comes together - not too high, not too low. About where TJ does his load, although it feels a lot lower to me when I do it - but pics/video seem to confirm I only drop the gun slightly from eye level.

I was chatting w/ TT and w/ DP40 about loads via PM/email, and that led to me experimenting with loads in different spots - my consistency was much higher in this spot and dropped off dramatically the closer I got to, say, TT or TGO on either end of the spectrum. I suspect I'll go through another bout of experimentation in the future (or maybe more than one) - for right now, that's working properly for me, so I'm not arguing with it while I focus on other parts of my reload, and on other skills that I need much more improvement on.

Seen video of Scott's loads (Loves2Shoot), and he's wicked fast, too.

[pac1911]

I've recieved some complaints from people browsing my gallery that it is boring because it is the same picture over and oer with different people. Your post is why the gallery is there. It is only through a series of shots where the variables are controlled that we can really compare the pros and learn from them.

thanks again

[Pierruiggi]

davidball, ok, Jake reloads high too (and a great shooter he is!).

Once again, I'd like to make myself clear in that I don't think there's a general "superior" way that's apliable to everyone; that's why in my first post I said "not necesarely" instead of "no".

My point is basically, what XRe says.

On a related note, have you noticed how many say "I use the modified Isosceles stance" or "I shoot freestyle" or "I shoot the IPSC way, squared to the target"; but none of these describe ONE shooting style in particular? It's just a base from which we evolve to our own style...

Which is funny to realize just now, taking into account Brian says this in his book.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Pierruiggi

[Skywalker]

FWIW.

This is a crappy short video I shot with my camera, that shows how I practice to reload on the first steps of my movement, down in my basement.

I simulate having shot the last shot of the array, then move on (at the beep) and reload on the first and half step (not yet able to do it fully on the first step).

I have a full classic target 4m in front of me, to aim at.

As you can see, I strive to reload at eye level, not to loose track of the target in front of me. This way, I can pull the trigger as soon as the extending movement of the gun is ended.

Dry_Reload.zip

Edited November 23, 2005 by Skywalker

[Flexmoney]

To answer the drift (I caused). Yes, sight pictures are allowed in shoot-offs. In fact, the whole shoot-off LAMR process takes extra long (one guy doesn't want to be waiting on the other...).

Dave and Robbie(1st pic) still have their reload mags in their pouches.

-----------

Back on topic...

I don't recall many top shooters that go below the sternum level on their reloads.

I do recall seeing a Dave Sevigny reload (on the move) that was lower than I expected.

I guess I would categorize (if I had to) desirable reloads in three positions:

- low-high...about sternum level...where Mike V. seems to be

- high-high...where Travis T's reloads are

- and, medium-high...where mine like to be (as pictured below)

BTW, Pierruiggi brings up many good points in this thread...worth experimenting with.

[davidball]

The less the gun moves, in theory, the quicker the reload will be (to a point, anyhow - keep the gun at arm's length has other problems). I found that at this point in my development, there's a happy point where everything comes together - not too high, not too low.

I think this hits the nail on the head. We take theoretical stuff like "less movement = less time" then we have to throw in things like physical ability (flexibility, etc.) and physical build, and just purely subjective stuff (I seem to move more smoothy inserting the mag in this direction rather than that) and we find the "happy point." But, as Flex points out, there seems to be some parameters within which almost everyone finds that point - higher reloads as opposed to belly button level are superior for almost everyone.

This would also apply to other skills like draws and movement - theory mixed with physical attributes mixed with purely subjective stuff within parameters that seem fairly universal.

Edited November 23, 2005 by davidball

[Loves2Shoot]

Goos point, body type and flexibility definitely come in to play in your movement. Ie. on the draw I pull my shoulders back so I can bring the gun straight up and then out. It is very efficient, but in teaching, many do not have the body type and flexibility to duplicate the motion, so you have to help them adapt.

People with longer arms may find face level reloads easier, while those with shorter arms (or more beef on their bodies) may find it is easier to reload a bit lower.

[Catfish]

In refining my reloads this year, I've definately found that higher, and a tad farther out from my face are faster than lower and closer.

As a point of reference to new shooters when I'm helping them with their reloads, I just tell them to (empty handed) point at the wall/targets/whatever and then bring their arm in towards their face, opening and turning their palm so that it's facing your eyes. When your tricep hits the front/side of your pec, that's as good a place to start working with as anywhere else and refine from there.

Hope that makes sense.

[davidball]

In refining my reloads this year, I've definately found that higher, and a tad farther out from my face are faster than lower and closer.

I found the same thing, especially the farther out part. I used to bring the gun way back towards me to the point my elbow would almost meet my torso. Then I saw a video clip of TT that was going around email and he hardly moved the gun back at all. Made me think . . . and experiment.

[Overhung]

I askdth qustion in th first place because I thought all of you would rcommend the same thing, looks like that this is one subject we should all learn to disagree.

I think my issue is- from reading M.B.'s book is that my eyes are too slow still and I need to speed up the vision thing. I don't think that I go from target to site to target and drive the gun to the next one. I think I fixate on the site and focus somewhere in between.

When i pull back to reload, or look down or break that plane of view, I take a lot of time getting back there. While I am a decent shooter, I think this will be self limiting until I can transition the eyes out side of thegun and focus back.

I am trying new sites soon, to help, my black on black I just cant see in the indoor ranges and why are indoor ranges so freaking dark?

Another question for you. The golf grip is a very unnatural feeling hold at first, but now every time I graba club, this grip feels pretty good. While there are subtle variations in the basic hold, everyone is taught the same way. Is this true of shooting. Some in this post have stated, if it feels good, it is good. Is itmore that you accustom yourself to a standard and deviate about a mean?

[XRe]

Some in this post have stated, if it feels good, it is good. Is itmore that you accustom yourself to a standard and deviate about a mean?

I think the latter more represents what goes on - we're all doing similar things, though we differ in absolutes. There are, after all, other, much less efficient way to reload the gun that only a very few folks employ (for instance, hold the gun as low as you can, and flip it over so you can see straight down into the mag well - that might be comfortable for someone, but I doubt you'd find anyone here saying that was good ).

Dry fire will help your eye speed, and your ability to shift focus from sights to target and back, and down to the magwell and back, etc. Another eye speed exercise I do doesn't require a gun - in fact, I do it while I'm driving in the car. Pick an object, and snap your focus to it, then snap to something else, etc. Focus on each thing very determinedly, and snap your vision to the next thing as fast as you possibly can. Do several "reps" - your eye muscles will get tired - your vision will get faster

[davidball]

Another question for you. The golf grip is a very unnatural feeling hold at first, but now every time I grab club, this grip feels pretty good. While there are subtle variations in the basic hold, everyone is taught the same way. Is this true of shooting. Some in this post have stated, if it feels good, it is good. Is itmore that you accustom yourself to a standard and deviate about a mean?

I think the golf analogy is a good one. My experience in both golf and shooting is that making a grip change always feels unnatural at first, but that doesn't mean it isn't an improvement. When considering a change I 1) determine if the proposed change could bring improvement 2) try the new grip until it is comfortable then 3) evaluate objectively (time, score, etc.) whether the change did in fact bring positive results. If it does, keep it. If not, go back to the old way.

[cz75ipsc]

-MAJOR THREAD DRIFT ALERT-

I just saw the aforementioned area 5 video of Jake, HOLY CRAP

I really wouldn't be surprised if he beat Grauffel in the next World Shoot.

I think I'm gonna quit this sport...