Driving Hands, Instead Of The Gun?

[boo radley]

Does anyone focus on driving not the gun to the next target, but instead the hands or thumbs or something?

I was experimenting last night and it *seemed* quicker to concentrate on snapping my hands to the next target, then doing a micro-adjustment to get the sight picture, than the usual way, which is to...well, just concentrate on driving the gun. Or not really concentrate on anything -- just drive the gun, and pick up and adjust the sight picture as needed.

Is that making any sense? I'm guessing this way (ie, driving hands, then picking up the sights) is going to be slower, ultimately, but it just feels fast because I've been pointing at things with my hands for 40 years?

I assume all this become subconscious, anyway, at some point? You see the next target and the sights appear?

[short_round]

If I understand correctly, ideally the focus should be on the gun. Since this will be the most adaptive for the variety of shooting positions that we get into.

I think everyone has their personal points of interest to reference a proper index based on the mental picture they have of themselves. I think "the hands or thumbs or something?" you are refering to are these points. Even though they are very important I don't think they replace the importance of primary focus on floating/driving the gun.

I was reading this thread the other day. Look for the quote below from benos.

"So if I hear you correctly your feet should work around your "floating" gun, istead of your gun working around your planted feet?"

Yes, but not only your feet - EVERYTHING - especially your grip, head, and arms.

Rather than just "snapping my hands to the next target," maybe it should be drive the whole NPA structure.

I hope this helps.

[ErikW]

Great question. I feel I'm driving the gun not my hands. And I was gonna say something about floating the gun before even reading the snippet from BE.

I just realized I have more of a sensation of driving the gun in Limited, and more of a sensation of a floating gun in Open. Probably has a lot to do with focus and a little to do with me being more comfortable and aggressive with a Limited gun.

[short_round]

... a little to do with me being more comfortable and aggressive with a Limited gun.

You know ... I never really understood that and still don't. You're the only person I know that can turn a Limited into a machine gun and still get their hits. It sounds like you're shooting open and at the end you laugh and smile like it was no big deal.

Too bad I missed you guys at the Bay Bridge ... it sounds like it was a lot of fun.

[ErikW]

You're the only person I know that can turn a Limited into a machine gun and still get their hits.

You need to get out more.

[short_round]

You need to get out more.

[boo radley]

Thanks, SR and Erik.

I didn't explain myself very well, and I'm not sure even I know exactly what I'm asking.....

Suppose I'm standing facing three targets. With *no* gun in my hands, it seems as if I can move my empty grip very quickly onto each target -- faster than with a gun in my hands. I realize this is a "no s***" kinda observation.

But I also wonder if maybe I should pretend that there's *not* a gun in my hands, when transitioning, even when there is? I wonder if that would be an effective way of practicing and keeping focus? A mantra of "aim the hands -- not the gun."

[Pierruiggi]

Thanks, SR and Erik.

I didn't explain myself very well, and I'm not sure even I know exactly what I'm asking.....

Suppose I'm standing facing three targets. With *no* gun in my hands, it seems as if I can move my empty grip very quickly onto each target -- faster than with a gun in my hands. I realize this is a "no s***" kinda observation.

But I also wonder if maybe I should pretend that there's *not* a gun in my hands, when transitioning, even when there is? I wonder if that would be an effective way of practicing and keeping focus? A mantra of "aim the hands -- not the gun."

You mean like a walkthrough?

I found the quickest and most reliable way (for me, at my current skill level, at least) is to will the sight picture to appear on target. It doesn't matter what kind of sight picture I need for that particular target (maybe a type 2? maybe a type 4?), the process is the same; I just want the sights to appear at that spot in the target I'm looking, and they do.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Pierruiggi

[RayKu]

If I can approach this question from a slightly different angle. Rather than focusing on the gun versus hands driving towards the target, I have found it useful to focus on my feet (specifically the balls of my feet) driving to the target. When I do this, what I am aware of is the position and tension in my wrists which is something that BE has described in other posts on the proper grip. Moving my focus to my feet has the benefit of maintaining proper balance especially the tendency in transitions to move weight back towards my heels or the natural tendency to rotate around the spine, and really helps maintain the index. When I focus on driving either my hands or the gun, I have a greater tendency to lose my index. In short I focus on what I drive with rather than what I am driving. Hope this helps.

[short_round]

But I also wonder if maybe I should pretend that there's *not* a gun in my hands, when transitioning, even when there is? I wonder if that would be an effective way of practicing and keeping focus? A mantra of "aim the hands -- not the gun."

I think it's difficult to talk about driving transitions without considering the gun. Since the amount of force you apply during acceleration and braking are really dependent on the weight of the gun and its "pointability."

Maybe it's best not to consider the hands and the gun as different things. Ideally the gun becomes an extension of you and part of the shooting platform that you build. Maybe think "aim/drive the platform"?

Check out this search there are some good threads in it that might help ...

[XRe]

I've never tried driving something other than the gun/platform - but I also discovered that focusing on moving the gun didn't really help me. The notion of "floating" the gun has always worked better for me. The gun just "appears" where my eyes are aligned, and the sights line themselves up on it.

For me, the notion and visual of "driving" the gun led to over-muscling and tension.

That said - perhaps it's a difference in how we experience these terms. In order to speed up transitions, etc, I've found it useful to envision "snapping" to the next target - eyes, sights, index, everything. FAST - or, should I say... SNAPPILY It's still controlled by eye sight, but the visual of "snapping" seems to both speed it up and make it more accurate for me - I think it's mainly because of being focused on *seeing*, but.... Some may call that driving the gun, I don't know... ??

[boo radley]

Thx again, all. I think I'm still making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, although RayKu opened up a whole NEW avenue of consideration with focus on the feet/weight.

I'm just trying to build fundamentals.

One of the drills I try to do for at least a couple minutes each day, is draw and aim at 3 dots I have on the wall, about 3' apart. I'll draw and aim at one, then transition to the other two - std stuff, I guess.

When I've been doing it, I haven't concentrated on doing...anything, really, other than moving the gun (driving it, I guess), and stopping it where it needs to be. I'll over/under-shoot, or almost always have to make small corrections, to get a perfect sight picture, but I'm hoping time and practice will help develop this skill.

So my real question is, is this fine, in of itself, and it just takes the time and repetitions? Or are there conscious thoughts to keep in the front of the mind like "Whip the hands to the next target," or "Drive with your feet?", that can speed this up?

Or is this way over-complicating a simple move - a sight-picture *here* then a sight-picture *there*, with no need to think about how to get the gun from here to there?

Is that making any sense?

[benos]

But I also wonder if maybe I should pretend that there's *not* a gun in my hands, when transitioning, even when there is? I wonder if that would be an effective way of practicing and keeping focus? A mantra of "aim the hands -- not the gun."

Yes. To cultivate the feeling, imagine, instead of a pistol in your hands, a straight rod sticking out of the center of your chest, ending with a set of sights on it where your gun's sights would normally be. Now, acquire targets.

be

[boo radley]

But I also wonder if maybe I should pretend that there's *not* a gun in my hands, when transitioning, even when there is? I wonder if that would be an effective way of practicing and keeping focus? A mantra of "aim the hands -- not the gun."

Yes. To cultivate the feeling, imagine, instead of a pistol in your hands, a straight rod sticking out of the center of your chest, ending with a set of sights on it where your gun's sights would normally be. Now, acquire targets.

be

That's a very strong and easy visualization. I tried that for a bit tonight. It certainly locks the upper body into a unit!

I appreciate your, and everyone's, input.

[Crusher]

Transitions are (and allways have been) my weak area. Recently, I have been letting the gun (or rather the energy from recoil) power itself (with some directional input from myself) to the next target with intial focus being a point on the target itself. My eyes catch the "spot" on the target and the sights just "appear" and "BANG", rinse and repeat.

As long as I do my part (shot calls and catching the sight lift) the recoil helps me move the handgun along to the next target, I'm not trying to track the sights to the next target during the transition.

I have also been playing with diffrent (yes, while I'm shooting) grip tension depending on what direction I wish to transition to (right/left) and it does make a significant diffrence in allowing the recoil from the gun to serve as the "engine" that initiates movement for a transition. As long as my trigger finger can "float" freely (not interface with anything other than the trigger itself) the changing grip tension does not effect accuracy whatsoever.

Steel plates racks have been the best targets for me to experiment for this type of pratice, there is so much going on while shooting seel that if I don't focus entirely on the technique the feedback is instant.