92 FS Barrel slugged

[radny97]

With quite a bit of experimentation my results mirror those of iDescribe. Less felt recoil from heavier bullets at the same PF may also mean more muzzle rise and slower cycling . With appropriate grip pressure and driving the gun, there’s no reason to shy away from lighter bullets, and it may help you a lot. 

[ddc]

45 minutes ago, radny97 said:

With quite a bit of experimentation my results mirror those of iDescribe. Less felt recoil from heavier bullets at the same PF may also mean more muzzle rise and slower cycling . With appropriate grip pressure and driving the gun, there’s no reason to shy away from lighter bullets, and it may help you a lot. 

A couple of you guys have used the term: "driving the gun".

And I've heard the term elsewhere as well.

But...

I don't really know what that means.

[Bench]

9 hours ago, radny97 said:

With quite a bit of experimentation my results mirror those of iDescribe. Less felt recoil from heavier bullets at the same PF may also mean more muzzle rise and slower cycling . With appropriate grip pressure and driving the gun, there’s no reason to shy away from lighter bullets, and it may help you a lot. 

Thanks ddc for your confirmation of lighter bullets. Range time was delayed from storms so I'll get out there later this week to  see just how these 124x.358's work. Then there's my cheap 9mm that I'll slug just for fun to see where it's at. There's always something isn't there.

[radny97]

23 hours ago, ddc said:

A couple of you guys have used the term: "driving the gun".

And I've heard the term elsewhere as well.

But...

I don't really know what that means.

 

It means gripping the gun in such a way that you are fully controlling (driving) it. It’s not pushing you around and you’re essentially shooting flat. It takes lots of work on grip strength and grip technique. I’m by no means the best at it, but i understand it i think. 

[IDescribe]

On 5/16/2018 at 1:08 AM, ddc said:

A couple of you guys have used the term: "driving the gun".

 

I don't really know what that means.

 

Recoil control is about grip and stance. 

 

Recoil control is a component of driving the gun.

 

Driving the gun I would define as a deliberate, dynamic, precise, and  forceful manipulation of a firearm to allow fast, accurate followup shots and fast transitions between targets. 

 

It includes a high, appropriately strong grip with the hands, but not so strong you lose fine motor control with the trigger finger. And it includes an internal rotation of the arms with unlocked elbows, which drives the elbows out and clamps the hands down on the pistol. 

 

It includes unlocked knees, squaring the shoulders to the target, and leaning far enough forward, based on your body weight, such that recoil is absorbed through the body and driven into the ground. 

 

It includes raising already aligned sights to your eye line and the point of aim, and during the transition to new targets, moving your eyes to the new point of aim, and directing the pistol in a straight line to align with that new point of aim to minimize inefficient movement. 

 

And it includes subconscious judgment of how precise all of that has to be to get the shot you need to get. 

 

People might compare it to driving a car, where most people behind the wheel are mostly just riding and offering input, but I think it's easier to compare it to driving a dirt bike or race bike, where the entire body is used to forcefully push the bike around and make the bike do precisely what you want it to do without consciously deciding what every part of your body has to do to make it happen. 

 

I also like the comparison to driving a nail.  Ever see someone who doesn't know how to handle a hammer and drive a nail?  The nail pitches this and that way, the hammer turns in the person's hand and has to be readjusted.  The nail pushes the person around.  Meanwhile, direct, deliberate, precise, efficient application of force controls the nail completely. 

 

GENERAL examples of not driving the gun - - 

 

Exercising bullseye level trigger control for a shot that does not require bullseye level accuracy, delaying the shot, increasing time between shots. 

 

Keeping eyes on aligned sights while moving the sights to the next target, which slows transition time and often results in overshooting the target and having to track back to it. 

 

When looking to fire a follow up shot on the same target - - any body dynamic, grip, stance, or otherwise, that brings the point of aim to a significantly different point of aim on the same target at the end of a recoil cycle. In other words, letting the gun push you around.  

 

When transitioning to a new target, any body dynamic that delays or otherwise reduces efficiency of transition or reduces your body's stability for the next shot. 

 

Not driving the gun usually involves the person making compromises with the gun.  But you can make the the gun an extension of your body, and no compromise is necessary. 

 

So... 

 

Driving the gun - -  Deliberate, forceful control of the gun to make it do what you need it to do in as efficient a manner as possible, and in as precise a manner as necessary, to get the hits you need to make as fast as they can be made. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by IDescribe

[Bench]

11 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Driving the gun - -  Deliberate, forceful control of the gun to make it do what you need it to do in as efficient a manner as possible, and in as precise a manner as necessary. 

Well said IDescribe, and this is the only other mention that I've ever heard of the internally rotated arms and unlocked (not at full extension) elbows to secure the pistol. It was a game changer for me once I found out and put it into practice.

 

Don't drive

  your gun

Faster than

  you run

 

(My mantra that seems fitting for a Burma Shave ad too...LOL)

[IDescribe]

And your eyes are a big big deal.  When you drive a car, you don't look at where you are - - you look where you want to go, and direct the car toward it. Same with a gun. 

[IDescribe]

6 minutes ago, Bench said:

this is the only other mention that I've ever heard of the internally rotated arms and unlocked (not at full extension) elbows to secure the pistol. 

 

Your shoulders are stronger than your grip, strong enough to tear your grip off the pistol. If you're not using that shoulder/arm rotation to clamp the gun between your hands, you're leaving most of your grip strength and recoil control on the table. 

 

There is plenty of discussion of this in the technique subforum.  Any thread on recoil control. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by IDescribe

[Bench]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:46 PM, IDescribe said:

In your shoes. I'd buy a couple of hundred Gallant 125gr bullets at .357 and a couple hundred Blue Bullets 125gr at .358 and test them for precision and leading.  If the. 358 had no advantages, I'd go with .357.  If the .358 had any advantages, I'd go .358.  

 

In your case. With Eggleston local, I might get both my .357 and .358 there. 

 

However, while we can tell you that you should go to at leadt .357, only your gun can tell you if there's a  benefit to .358.  

 

Let us know. 

RANGE REPORT:

Yesterday I shot up just about everything that I had (including my chrono, may it rest in piece...s).: Xtreme 147's, some Eggelston Munitions(EM)147 RN, and EM 124's @ .356. Then there was a bunch of EM 124's @ .358 and no .357's. From as good of a rest as I could make, at 15 yds the .358"s were a winner over the EM .356's with regard to accuracy. There were tighter groups and POI was closer to POA. Freehand was a different story though as I consistently shot low, not low and left but inline and low. That would indicate to me that it's not the pistol but something that I need to work on.

 

CONCLUSION:

I'm very comfortable with the load and the bullet @.358 with no problems with the recoil at all. I may someday try a batch of the .357's but that will have to wait.

 

Thanks to you All for chiming in here.

 

[IDescribe]

7 minutes ago, Bench said:

Freehand was a different story though as I consistently shot low, not low and left but inline and low.

 

 

That's either your sights, or grip and trigger control, which are related. 

 

Search YouTube for Bob Vogel on Grip.  What he describes works perfectly in my Glock as described and demonstrated, but takes some minor modifications with other pistols.  The principles are the same, though, regardless of pistol.  

 

It's the best grip video I've seen. 

[Bench]

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

And your eyes are a big big deal.  When you drive a car, you don't look at where you are - - you look where you want to go, and direct the car toward it. Same with a gun. 

Then there's the 'aging eyes' bit. That's what I'm dealing with for sure. Yesterday I shot a S&W M&P with fiber (?)sights...what a difference!!! over my 3 dot factory sights.

[Bench]

35 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

That's either your sights, or grip and trigger control, which are related. 

 

Search YouTube for Bob Vogel on Grip.  What he describes works perfectly in my Glock as described and demonstrated, but takes some minor modifications with other pistols.  The principles are the same, though, regardless of pistol.  

 

It's the best grip video I've seen. 

That's where I first saw it. The modification that I've done to his video with my long fingers is to wrap my weak hand index finger around the front of the trigger guard. I'm exploring this as a possible  issue with my low freehand shots. Too bad he doesn't have more videos other than the interview clips done in Finland.

[IDescribe]

4 hours ago, Bench said:

That's where I first saw it. The modification that I've done to his video with my long fingers is to wrap my weak hand index finger around the front of the trigger guard. I'm exploring this as a possible  issue with my low freehand shots. 

 

 Careful with the weak hand index finger across the front of the trigger guard.  If you look at that video, I think you'll find that Vogel is not pulling on the front of the trigger guard.  Rather, his finger is up there in front of the trigger guard but still clasping the receiver.  If you put your index finger across the front of the trigger guard and pull back against it, that is likely to drop your muzzle. 

[Bench]

1 hour ago, IDescribe said:

 

 Careful with the weak hand index finger across the front of the trigger guard.  If you look at that video, I think you'll find that Vogel is not pulling on the front of the trigger guard.  Rather, his finger is up there in front of the trigger guard but still clasping the receiver.  If you put your index finger across the front of the trigger guard and pull back against it, that is likely to drop your muzzle. 

Sounds like I'll need to revisit Vogel. I am pulling back so that's something that will require some work to evaluate and change as needed. Thanks!!!

[Bench]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:46 PM, IDescribe said:

 

 

In your shoes. I'd buy a couple of hundred Gallant 125gr bullets at .357 and a couple hundred Blue Bullets 125gr at .358 and test them for precision and leading.  If the. 358 had no advantages, I'd go with .357.  If the .358 had any advantages, I'd go .358.  

 

In your case. With Eggleston local, I might get both my .357 and .358 there. 

 

However, while we can tell you that you should go to at leadt .357, only your gun can tell you if there's a  benefit to .358.  

 

Let us know. 

 IDescribe, thanks for the heads up on the Gallant bullets. I finally got the Gallant sample packs  in .356. and .357. I haven't had a chance to load up the .356's but the .357's sure loaded up to +/-.003 with an OAL of 1.13 and plunked beautifully. There was just one run with no cartridges that needed another pass through the setting die. What a pleasure to load. I'll see how these shoot and I just may have found a favorite bullet!! I just need to be aware of their lead time. Thank goodness for Eggelstons here in town for 'emergencies'.

[IDescribe]

Awesome.  Let us know how it goes.