Mor Rifle

[rkgsmith]

I'm looking for suggestions on a MOR gun in either .308 or 7mm-08. I'd like to hear some pros and cons for each. I have access to Federal .308 168gr. match so that's all I would be shooting in the gun if chambered for .308 But would the 7mm-08 give better performance. What bullets would work best in the 7mm-08. Any help would be appreciated.

[michael_aos]

Not what you asked -- but have you considered .260 Remington?

6.5mm-08

Mike

[MattBurkett]

7mm doesn't have the bullet selection that 6.5 does. Plus you can't push them hard enough in that case. The 6.5-08 is a great round but does take more work than a 308. Especially with free ammo for the 308! The best situation I can see is where you have a gun that you can swap barrels on like my AIAW or a Tubbs2K. Then it is the best of both worlds.

[ccur]

the most important thing is to blue print the action..makes rebarrelling way easier

The .308 is way easier owing to the fact that there is all the data and components that you will ever need readily available! The .260 is a ton more work but is a really sweet cartridge, especially with 123 Lapuas!

Cheryl

[cottyw]

.308, 173 pulled match bullets. 100$ per 1000

I make my ammo for .25 a piece.

I have lost my mind on this long range shooting. I am hooked big time. Some friends and I have been experimenting this entire year and have finally gotten consistent hits out to 1000 yards. My 3-gun and pistol shooting have almost died. I feel like an addict.

My load for my savage 10fp 20” (cut down from 24) is 44 grains of Varget. Cases are match prepped with all the gadgets from Sinclair.

I read the articles you guys posed here about the 20” barrels and tried it. They were right. I still get 2600 fps in the winter and due to the shorter barrel and less friction it does not seem to heat up as fast.

The gun will shoot 6” at 1000 consistently.

Hitting a man size target at 1000 yard first round impact with .308 is difficult. Humidity, temperature and barometric pressure all play a little role in dope. Out to 800 yards hitting is relatively easy. I think a lot of the guys who say it (.308) falls off fast are telling the truth. The flatter the trajectory the less the above-mentioned factors will effect your bullet. If you have a good spotter you can put –3 MOA for 1000 yards and your spotter can usually put you on the target second round.

We made out targets out of welded car suspension leaf springs. They are IPSC targets painted tan. When hit the hit shows up black. You can see the hits easily out to 1000 yards.

We also put together a remote viewing system that will let us look at paper targets at 1000 yards. We are building this to let us practice for F-class competition.

I think a laser range finder or a good eye is critical for ranging targets. Mil Dot reticles only go so far and at extreme distances. The target must be pretty big for them to be accurate. Mirage also affects their practicality. I have a 10x Super Sniper. It is a very good scope. The clicks are dead on and the glass is clear.

I tied my bipod legs together to make them quick extend. I also tied my bean bad to the rear sling swivel so it is always there. I used Velcro to put my Mil Dot Master and my slope doper on the gun. The reason I put all this on the gun was to make my shots as fast as possible under stress.

Matt,

You were right if you want to be good you will do whatever it takes to find a place to shoot. You can shoot in North Carolina out to 1000 yards but it will take some work to find the facility and partners who are as crazy about Long Range shooting as you.

TPS will be making a detachable magazine for the savage soon, which will complete my rifle. I will start competing as soon as I get the conversion.

Will

[gm iprod]

CottyW,

Do you have contact details for TPS, email and ph or fax numbers would be brilliant.

Thanks

[George]

The .308 is a better choice considering the ammo source you have if it's cheap/free. Barrel life will be better too :-)

If you don't go with .308, the .260/6.5 direction really is the heat for precision LD work (at the moment anyway).

[cottyw]

GM,

http://www.tpsproducts.com/forum/viewtopic...d860ed8d27fc53f

[rkgsmith]

Thanks for the imput. If I went with the .308, then 168 match is the only option, because thats free. One other question about the 6.5. Can you neck down the .308 just like you can with the 7mm-08 or do you need factory cases. Finally anybody using the FN rifles, pros and cons over the remingtons?

[Zak Smith]

308 cases can be necked down to 260, but you'll probably need to turn the case necks down.

[JP.308]

Go with .308 - you'll never be sorry you did.

Your gonna love it!!!

[MattBurkett]

Actually it is a whole lot easier to neck .243 lapua brass up to .260 rem. Get an expander ball and go to town. Much better brass too!

[rkgsmith]

The brass can't be as good as FREE .308 match!

[JP.308]

You'd be crazy not go with .308 - especially since you can get free match ammo!!!

You'll be glad you did.

Jp.308

[cottyw]

Just sold the Savage and I am getting ready to build the super MOR rifle. I am going to get a 7-08 and when I shoot the barrel out I will decide whether or not to switch to .260 for sniper matches. I am not going to pay the money to get it re-barreled until I put away the money fro my daughter’s college/ wedding and my son’s education. I know the stock, DBM, base and rings I want.

With that being said what bullet weight should I shoot and what type of scope should I use?

[Zak Smith]

Shoot the highest BC bullet you can find, and still get a reasonably flat trajectory.

IMO, the first-focal plane Horus reticle is the only (fast) way to go in MOR.

[JP.308]

Just another thought - just because you can get free Fedral match ammo doesn't neccesarily mean that your gun will like it.

Every gun has different "taste buds."

Still I would go .308

Jp.308

[MattBurkett]

Just an FYI I have heard repeatedly from some highly respected individuals that the Fed. Gold Metal Match brass is horrible for reloading. Does great for the first shot out of the box, but, too soft for use afterwards.

I would also go .308 for the first gun and .260 for the 3rd or 4th gun after some experience is gained. There are no good bullets in 7-08 and the you can't really pushem fast enough anyway according to the data I have seen.

Good luck either way!

[Zak Smith]

7-08 just doesn't have the powder capacity to push the high BC 7mm bullets fast-- which include the 162gr AMAX, 168 & 180gr Berger. You might be able to get 2800fps from the AMAX.

There are more decent choices in 6.5 bullets from Berger, Sierra, and Lapua.

But 308 isn't that bad...

-z

[cottyw]

You guys are killing me. Matt/Zak, I think what you all are saying is go with a Remington 700 in .308 and shoot the 190’s and then switch to .260 when I re-barrel. This is some data I have for 7mm-08 from a friend.

Ran trace reports on the 7mm 08 with the following bullets.

140 gr at 2870 fps at 800 yds 23.2 MOA

150 gr at 2850 fps at 800 yds 22.5 MOA

162 gr at 2760 fps at 800 yds 23.3 MOA

168 gr at 2600 fps at 800 yds 25.9 MOA

150 gr at 2600 fps at 800 yds 25.9 MOA

Looks like all weights are good with a slight edge for the 150-grain MK. The 162 may be the best for wind. These are the max velocities for the 7mm08. You might gain a little with longer barrel and an improved chamber.

It looks like 7-08 shoots flatter than .308. To shoot the equivalent BC to the 168 in 7mm-08 you would need a 240 in .308. I know 6.5 is the optimum cartridge. I think I have learned most of what I can about .308. I was thinking a 7mm-08 would be a good in-between.

[Zak Smith]

The issue with 7-08 is that pretty much the ONLY bullets with decent BC are the ones above 160gr I named before. And by your data, you'll be limited to 2760fps with the 162gr AMAX which is pretty slow. If you go down in bullet weight, there's nothing really with a BC higher than 0.500, so what do you gain over 308?

I think what you all are saying is go with a Remington 700 in .308 and shoot the 190’s

Those heavy high-BC bullets launched at slow velocities result in more drop per incremental yard, which means range estimation gets much more critical.

Here's a comparison of a bunch of loads/calibers, with loads I think are reasonable. I put them sorted by wind drift first, since that's most important as long as the trajectory is reasonably flat too.

(The formatting is F'd because a fixed-width font is not specified by the board code for CODE sections. It ought to be fixed-- works on the other boards fine)

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     100     200     300     400     500     600     700     800 | YARDS
7RM 168 VLD       0.648 2950 >    0.00    0.41    1.67    3.85    7.00   11.19   16.50   23.02   30.84 | wind (inches)
300WM 210 VLD     0.640 2870 >    0.00    0.43    1.76    4.05    7.38   11.81   17.43   24.34   32.62 | wind (inches)
284 168VLD        0.648 2830 >    0.00    0.43    1.77    4.08    7.43   11.89   17.55   24.49   32.83 | wind (inches)
260AI 140gr VLD   0.620 2930 >    0.00    0.43    1.77    4.07    7.42   11.88   17.54   24.50   32.87 | wind (inches)
284 162AMAX       0.627 2830 >    0.00    0.45    1.84    4.23    7.70   12.34   18.22   25.47   34.17 | wind (inches)
260 140 VLD       0.620 2820 >    0.00    0.46    1.87    4.30    7.84   12.56   18.56   25.95   34.82 | wind (inches)
7-08 162AMAX      0.627 2760 >    0.00    0.46    1.90    4.38    7.99   12.80   18.92   26.45   35.49 | wind (inches)
260 123 Scenar    0.540 3000 >    0.00    0.48    1.98    4.57    8.35   13.42   19.90   27.92   37.61 | wind (inches)
300WM 190 SMK     0.53* 2970 >    0.00    0.50    2.04    4.70    8.60   13.82   20.51   28.80   38.86 | wind (inches)
308 210 VLD       0.640 2470 >    0.00    0.53    2.19    5.05    9.21   14.78   21.85   30.54   40.97 | wind (inches)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2910 >    0.00    0.54    2.20    5.10    9.34   15.05   22.39   31.49   42.55 | wind (inches)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2830 >    0.00    0.56    2.29    5.31    9.73   15.69   23.34   32.85   44.40 | wind (inches)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2700 >    0.00    0.61    2.51    5.84   10.72   17.32   25.80   36.38   49.26 | wind (inches)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2650 >    0.00    0.63    2.58    6.00   11.02   17.81   26.55   37.44   50.72 | wind (inches)
308 190 SMK       0.53* 2500 >    0.00    0.63    2.61    6.05   11.11   17.94   26.73   37.63   50.83 | wind (inches)
308 168 SMK       0.46* 2780 >    0.00    0.63    2.61    6.13   11.34   18.47   27.83   39.67   54.27 | wind (inches)
308 168 SMK       0.46* 2700 >    0.00    0.66    2.75    6.44   11.92   19.47   29.35   41.83   57.24 | wind (inches)
260 120 SMK       0.410 2850 >    0.00    0.69    2.85    6.65   12.29   20.00   30.03   42.64   58.13 | wind (inches)
223 Hor 75        0.395 2670 >    0.00    0.78    3.26    7.64   14.16   23.11   34.77   49.44   67.41 | wind (inches)

7RM 168 VLD       0.648 2950 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.00    5.25    7.75   10.25   13.25   16.25 | drop (Qt moa)
300WM 210 VLD     0.640 2870 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.25    5.75    8.25   11.00   14.25   17.50 | drop (Qt moa)
284 168VLD        0.648 2830 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.50    5.75    8.50   11.50   14.50   18.00 | drop (Qt moa)
260AI 140gr VLD   0.620 2930 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.25    5.50    8.00   10.75   13.50   16.75 | drop (Qt moa)
284 162AMAX       0.627 2830 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.50    6.00    8.50   11.50   14.75   18.25 | drop (Qt moa)
260 140 VLD       0.620 2820 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.50    6.00    8.75   11.75   15.00   18.50 | drop (Qt moa)
7-08 162AMAX      0.627 2760 >   -0.00    0.00    1.50    3.75    6.25    9.25   12.25   15.50   19.25 | drop (Qt moa)
260 123 Scenar    0.540 3000 >   -0.00    0.00    1.00    3.00    5.25    7.75   10.50   13.50   16.75 | drop (Qt moa)
300WM 190 SMK     0.53* 2970 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.00    5.50    8.00   10.75   14.00   17.25 | drop (Qt moa)
308 210 VLD       0.640 2470 >   -0.00    0.00    2.00    5.00    8.25   11.75   15.75   20.00   24.75 | drop (Qt moa)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2910 >   -0.00    0.00    1.25    3.25    5.75    8.50   11.50   15.00   18.50 | drop (Qt moa)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2830 >   -0.00    0.00    1.50    3.50    6.25    9.00   12.25   16.00   19.75 | drop (Qt moa)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2700 >   -0.00    0.00    1.75    4.00    7.00   10.25   14.00   18.00   22.50 | drop (Qt moa)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2650 >   -0.00    0.00    1.75    4.25    7.25   10.75   14.50   18.75   23.50 | drop (Qt moa)
308 190 SMK       0.53* 2500 >   -0.00    0.00    2.00    5.00    8.25   12.25   16.25   21.00   26.00 | drop (Qt moa)
308 168 SMK       0.46* 2780 >   -0.00    0.00    1.50    4.00    6.75   10.00   13.50   17.50   22.25 | drop (Qt moa)
308 168 SMK       0.46* 2700 >   -0.00    0.00    1.75    4.25    7.25   10.75   14.50   19.00   23.75 | drop (Qt moa)
260 120 SMK       0.410 2850 >   -0.00    0.00    1.50    3.75    6.50    9.75   13.25   17.25   22.00 | drop (Qt moa)
223 Hor 75        0.395 2670 >   -0.00    0.00    1.75    4.50    7.75   11.50   15.75   20.75   26.50 | drop (Qt moa)

Any shot (within 1000 yards) that can be made with 260 can be made with 308. The shooter has less margin of error for wind estimation with 308, that's it (about 20% more drift with the 308). 260 will have less recoil than the 155 308 loads, but just by a little bit.

Looking at the numbers, the 155 Lapua Scenar for 308 is a great bullet-- same BC as the 175SMK, but you can shoot it over 2900fps from a 24" bbl. It has the same drop as 260/140VLD out to 800 yards.

If you're doing that with 308, then only real ballistic benefit of switching to 260 would be 8" less wind drift at 800 yards (10mph cross).

The reason I say that 308 isn't bad, compared to 260, is this: how many misses are due to the shooter screwing up and not merely misjudging the wind by 2 mph? If we're dealing with wind in the 5mph regime, then 4" difference at 800 yards usually won't mean the difference between a hit and a miss (ie, it would be right on the edge of a 8" wide target-- and that's a small target at 800y).

On short (ie to 400-500 yard) MOR stages, you can use cheaper, lighter (ie, lower BC) bullets to reduce recoil. It won't make a difference on typical target sizes. Hell, my AWP shoots the Australian F4 surplus ball good enough to make hits on 10" steel to 500 yards every time using my "normal" dope!

The 308 barrel will last a lot longer, and there are better components available for less reloading effort (e.g. Lapua 308 brass good to go from the box).

If you want a big jump in ballistic capability, both wind and elevation, you pretty much need a bigger case than the -08 family.

But on the -08 case, if you're building from the ground up, can put up with shorter barrel life, and don't mind more reloading effort, then 260 is the better choice. If you want more barrel life and a more simple ammo situation, 308 is fine.

I guess my overall point is that shooting skill is more important than subtle differences between 260, 7-08, and 308, for our types of games (MOR to the ITRC let's say). If you step up in powder capacity to the -284 case (ie, 6.5-284) or a magnum case, you get way better ballistics with the right bullet at the expense of barrel life, mag capacity, recoil, etc. (That's also ignoring wildcats like the 260AI...)

-z

[EricW]

Just an FYI I have heard repeatedly from some highly respected individuals that the Fed. Gold Metal Match brass is horrible for reloading. Does great for the first shot out of the box, but, too soft for use afterwards.

Federal brass is REALLY soft. Another major problem is feeding Federal brass through detachable box magazines. The stuff is so soft that the brass gets destroyed going through the feed lips. Bad juju on game day.

[cottyw]

Zak,

Great data as always. You did a great job explaining the different points. Still looks like 7mm-08 may be a good in-between with the 160+ bullets. I will keep you posted.

Thanks,

Will

[srose]

The 308 is one of the best cartridges ever. The 7mm08 is also great. I have shot both alot and I think the 7mm08 has some advantages. Better BC for the same velocity, you can use same cheap brass and if you use 308 brass for making 7mm08 cases you have a thick neck that can be turned to fit chamber of any rifle.

I used 162 grain Hornaday match bullets in my 7mm08 with a case full of H414. Didn't have a chrono at time so don't know how fast it was going. This load shot great.

I have just gotten hooked on this long range shooting and am still learning. Bought a Winchester Coyote in 7mm WSM to try. I think this cartridge has alot to offer. A 168 grain at 2900 fps shoots great and is very flat shooting. Bullets for the 7mm are getting better and more weights are available. Its not quite as good as the 6.5 in BC or in number of bullets to try.

One big advantage to the 7mm08 or 7mmWSM is you can buy a good rifle off the shelf without having to build one.

[cottyw]

Here is an update guys and gals. I bought both a .308 Tactical/Practical Rem. 700 AICS and a 7mm-08 Rem. 700 hunting rifle. I love them both and after I get back to NC I will shoot the heck out of them and tell yawl how it goes. If you guys want I can give you some pics.

Will