New ipsc shotgun rules

[paraman1]

I dont know how many of you have checked out the proposed new shotgun rules on the ipsc website but the 7 rounds max loaded in the tube rule bites . I know this doesnt really apply to USPSA competitors , but as the 2 organizations move toward using the same rule book it could . We have already had one reduction in magazine capacity and now they want to propose another ?? At this rate my Winchester model 1400 will be competitive in just a few more years with only 2 rounds in the tube .

[Wakal]

I thought the 7-round thing was for pump/slide action...

That said, rant mode: on

I'm holding out for reduction-in-capacity to reach such inanities that I can compete in IPSC three-gun and Cowboy Action with the same 1897 Winchester.  Or side by side shotgun.

Gag.

My Open shotgun is a sub-30" OAL with a 21-round capacity.  And yes, I'm still bitter that I can't load it all the way up.

Alex

[Chriss Grube]

How the hell are you getting 21 in a shotgun under 30"? I gotta see this.

[3GunF1Guy]

I would like to start a discusion of the proposed IPSC shotgun rules.

I'll just start with what I like in the rules and then.. what parts I think will make them NEVER fly with most 3-Gun happy people.

I like the new A3 and A4 shotgun targets, Mutch easier to score. I also like having definitions in the rules for thing like how to carry your gun from stage to stage, Start positions and ready conditions.

Don't like:

24 rd max count on stage.

No shooting steel plates with slugs.

Weak sholder shooting only on clasifiers.

(Drum Roll please) (the really stupid one!) Max of 10 or 10% whichever is lower on fragible targets. This rule is just never going to work with Mike Gibsons poper thrower. Those things are just about as much fun as you can have with your shotgun at a match.

[Wakal]

I adore those clay-throwing poppers too.  You will see them AND the much-vaunted Texas Stars on shotgun stages at the Texas 3-Gun Championship (plenty of slots still available, but it is filling up fast!  Sign up, stage descritions, and match information here:  http://www.sanangelogunclub.org/action_pistol/ts3gun.htm )

Chriss:  You get 21 rounds in a sub-30" shotgun by making your mag go down (and around), not out...

http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag...s/USAS_race.JPG

Yes, I get called about six kinds of bas'ard on the long 20+ round stages.  Now with the Briley choke tubes in it, I can actually hit the long shots too  

Alex

[Chriss Grube]

Ok, gotta agree. Cheatin' bas'ard comes to mind! How is it for reliability?

[Wakal]

It only likes max dram stuff...as long as you feed it big bullets, it runs perfectly.

A

[HiCapMag]

Wakal, if you bring that to the Texas 3 Gun that will be worth my trip just to see that thing.

The Coon-Ass militia plans to attend.

(Edited by HiCapMag at 9:23 pm on Mar. 8, 2003)

[Wakal]

I'll throw extra ammo in the truck JUST for you.  I'll be shooting the weekend before with the rest of the RO's, of course, but I'll be sure to bring it along for the show...the line forms to the left!  Definitely an E-ticket  

Alex

[John Thompson]

I can get fourteen Aquila mini slugs in my Benelli Nova.

[Neil Beverley]

Wow! There's a lot of stuff to answer here.

paraman1

The 2003 rules for Limited Division (almost the equivalent of USPSA Standard) do place a restriction of 7 rounds in the mag tube but that allows for 9 rounds total on a Benelli for those that can accept the extra round on the carrier.

For 2004 the intention is to change to the USPSA rule definition of 9 rounds total for this Division.

Modified Division allows any number of rounds providing the gun doesn't exceed an overall length of 1320mm (52 inches).

IPSC Open is "open". No restrictions. For the US you are likely to restrict this to 11 rounds (10 + 1) and cite Regional legal reasons for this (and for Modified).

The main other correction for 2004 is that in 2003 you can't add an Eeezi loader ramp (or similar) to the floor plate on the Remingtons. OK again for 2004.

Alex - We've had this conversation before and your gun looks awesome and lots of fun to shoot.

Scott - I've made a further change to the A4 and A3 targets which is still subject to approval but my redesign allows them to be reproduced on ANSI A and ANSI B paper (8.5 x 11 and 11 x 17).  We've been using them for a year now in the UK and they're a really useful target (Xerox them so can be disposable per shooter) for shotgun stuff.  You can also fit more targets into smaller bays with these.

In case you hadn't spotted it the A3 target has an identical size A zone to the IPSC Metric target and I've taken a little poetic licence with the surrounding C Zone otherwise it's very similar to the upper central portion of the Metric target. The A4 version is a 2/3 scale version of the A3.

The max round count is 32 rounds (not 24) and with a max of 28 targets.  To get to 32 rounds you need to double tap at least 4 paper targets.

For 2004 it will be OK to shoot plates with slugs.  Minimum distance for poppers and plates is to be reduced to 40m.

Weak shoulder shooting in Classifiers and Standards is an option not a requirement. If you don't like it then don't include it in your matches.  Have you ever tried shooting heavy slugs, weak shoulder, prone?  Aaaaaaaagh!

The restriction limiting the number of clays, or rather frangible targets, has been removed for 2004.

Arnie C. is on the committee and he has been a fantastic help in producing the 2004 rules.  Mike V. has proved invaluable as well. Myro from the Philippines is also on the committee and I truly believe we have achieved a great deal. We all focused on solutions rather than problems. The process was good natured throughout.

I spent some considerable time trawling through these forums looking for information prior to starting the 2004 rule changes. I am particularly grateful for the input I received from some people that offered specific suggestions in these forums or corresponded with me through email.

On the other hand there's bound to be someone somewhere, including (especially?) the UK, who doesn't like something. Such is the nature of the beast!

[3GunF1Guy]

You know I should have known A3 and A4 target sizes but I thought they were some new thing. I am a printer so I should know what A3 and A4 is.

Are the rules posted on the USPSA web site not the proposed rules? Becouse from what I got in reading Front Site they were the rules that just need to be approved.

[Neil Beverley]

Scott

The targets are quite new - they only came in force Jan 2002 and only a handful of Regions have tried them,  They're really useful for both buck and slug because who really wants to patch these. Because they can be copied (Xeroxed) they provide a very cheap disposable target and fresh for every competitor. Less arguments.

I haven't seen the IPSC SG rules on the USPSA web site and to be truthful I don't think they are likely to be used in the US in 2003. However, I am optimistic for 2004. You can download a 2003 set from the IPSC web pages.

Perhaps someone from the Board could confirm the position for 2003 and sorry I can't be more helpful on this.

One point I would particularly like to make is that we have found there to be very much more in common than not with the thinking and requirements for shotgun stages/matches. The intention is obviously to try and govern and steer the discipline but without hindering it. It's a fine line sometimes. Regretably there are now far too many rules written to avoid gaming. It's a shame that it's necessary. I'm sure that some of this is a reflection of how highly competitive matches are today.

If I can help with any further info then ask away.