Flashlight: A Sighting Device!

[D.Hayden]

Berkim,

I don't know what the ruling is for shotgun, but the litmus test just can't be "if it is an advantage or not".  That is far too subjective.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope... I agree... just wondering..

[D.Hayden]

I know it's been discussed, has there been a consensus about weather flashlights are optics or not, on Pistols, rifles or shotguns?

5.1.3.2

“Optical/electronic sights” are aiming devices which use

electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

Just wondering..

[Wakal]

John Amidon told me, to my face and in front of witnesses, at the 2005 Open Nationals that USPSA did not recognize ANY RULING or RULE INTERPRETATION made by IPSC unless said ruling or rule interpretation was then voted on by USPSA's Powers That Be.

So there.

IPSC is officially, as per John Amidon, irrelevant as far as USPSA rules goes. Which would be to the edge of the country, where IPSC rules take effect...in the rest of the world.

Of course, I was specifically curious about the "flashlight is a sighting device" IPSC ruling of 06 August 04, which decreed (for the rest of the world, but NOT the US, as per John Amidon) that a flashlight WAS a sighting device. John assured me, again to my face, that a flashlight was NOT a sighting device IN THE UNITED STATES no matter what the 06 Aug 04 ISPC rule clarifications stated.

So feel free to hang flashlights off everything no matter what your Division; as per John Amidon they are NOT sighting devices. If the stage description doesn't specify, then you can hang one off your guns in dark houses, no matter what your Division.

And just for the record, I shot the entire 2005 USPSA Open Nationals with a flashlight attached to my pistol.

Alex

[Nik Habicht]

And just for the record, I shot the entire 2005 USPSA Open Nationals with a flashlight attached to my pistol.

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alex,

did you turn it on?

[D.Hayden]

Alex.. thanks, that makes the most sense to me.

I'd hate to see someone go to Open, just because they have a flashlight on thier shotgun.

[Flexmoney]

Well, I think Alex is reading into this a bit too far.

So feel free to hang flashlights off everything no matter what your Division;

1. Regardless of a flashlight being a sighting device or not, we have other rules that cover what you can and can't put on a gun. I think, for Limited and Limited-10 the rules say you can't hang any weighted devices on your gun. Production and Revolver, I believe, say no external modifications.

So, I think that Open is the only Handgun division that the rules would allow a shooter to hang a light on the gun.

as per John Amidon they [lights] are NOT sighting devices

2. Did Amidon actual give that as his opinion? That lights are OK per the criteria of 5.1.3.1 and 5.1.3.2? Or, did he simply state that the IPSC interpretations don't count in USPSA?

3. Regardless, until USPSA issues an "Official Ruling" on the USPSA site (they haven't, I just checked), the rules in question will be interpreted by the means set forth in the rule book.

5.1.3.3 says...The Range Master is the final authority in respect of the classification of any sights used in an IPSC match and/or their compliance with these rules, including the Divisions in Appendix D.

The RM will (should) look at rules:

5.1.3.1 “Open sights” are aiming devices which do not use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

5.1.3.2 “Optical/electronic sights” are aiming devices which use electronic circuitry and/or lenses.

4. I don't think there is any confusion about the "electronic circuitry and/or lenses" part. Clearly, light contain those.

5. The question then becomes...can lights be considered "aiming devices".

My opinion is that they can, indeed, be used as aiming devices. I have tested the concept.

If the stage description doesn't specify, then you can hang one off your guns in dark houses, no matter what your Division.

6. Again, I just don't think that is true at all.

I'd have no problem with an Open shooter with a light on their gun, as long as they kept it on there the entire match. Whether they turn it on or leave it off for any particular stage is of no concern to me and the rules. (You can turn on, or leave off, your C-more, for example.)

I do agree that, for the Open shooter to even bother to take "stage provided" light along with them, there would need to be a well written stage procedure compelling them to do so.

As for the 3-gun rules, I don't know. Do they read different than the Pistol rules? I am not familar enough with them to comment.

[Flexmoney]

I should point out, that is just my read on the current Handgun rules. Those are what we have on the books. If you believe that they need changed and/or clarified, please make a case to the Board of Directors and NROI Officials.

[Wakal]

2. Did Amidon actual give that as his opinion? That lights are OK per the criteria of 5.1.3.1 and 5.1.3.2? Or, did he simply state that the IPSC interpretations don't count in USPSA?

Flex,

Amidon said two things. First (and oft-repeated, in at least three separate phrases that parsed the same way, all in the same conversation), that no IPSC rules clarification or rulings were valid under USPSA in any way, shape, or for UNLESS that clarification or ruling was voted into effect by USPSA. Second, he said that (flat out) a flashlight is NOT considered a sighting device.

As he is the RM to end all RMs, the master of all, the all-knowing, the King Dawg, the Big Cheese of USPSA rules, I (as a mere mortal match director and lowly competitor) would be loathe to contradict him. Period. I got the answer straight from the Great Kahuna himself, and there is no appellate authority. All else is mere speculation before He Who Clarifies The Rules.

No matter what your opinion...or mine...John Amidon is THE MAN, and his opinion carries the full weight of law in USPSA. And The Man said that a flashlight is NOT a sighting device.

Now, you theorized that a flashlight is a "external weight"...well, that may be a tough row to hoe, as my favorite flashlight (for this game) is just half an ounce. I've had mud on the handguard of my rifle (during a course of fire) that weighed more than that

And for folks that think a flashlight is "gamey", check out the M4A1 being toted around in Iraq these days. Flashlights AND dot sights

Nik, I kept it turned off. I could have turned it on in any stage BUT the Dark House (where the carefully Alex-proof'ed stage description specified only THEIR flashlight would be used).

Alex

[Flexmoney]

No matter what your opinion...or mine...John Amidon is THE MAN, and his opinion carries the full weight of law in USPSA.  And The Man said that a flashlight is NOT a sighting device.

Well...I disagree.

There is no doubt that Amidon is "The Man". And, that his opinion carries plenty of weight...but, his opinion is not law. That is what the "official rulings" are for.

The law is what is printed in the rule book and what is posted in the "Official Rulings" on the USPSA website.

Plain. Simple. As it should be. (What if the head of NROI got hit by a bus?)

The rule book, in this case, is pretty clear. 5.1.3.3 puts the call in the Range Master's lap. I don't know if that is where it needs to be, but that seems to be where it is at. I can't read it any other way? If that needs changed, then perhaps we need to start a letter writing campaign.

----------------

As to if a light is a weight...

Shouldn't matter if it is 0.01 ounce or 10 pounds. Where would we draw the line? Could we say that your Photon light is OK? My Surefire X200? A four cell Mag-lite strapped to the gun with duct-tape?

Now, I don't believe you little light makes a bit of difference in recoil, but how subjective do we want our rules?

[Wakal]

And how nitpicky? For example, I bolt a section of plastic rail on the forend of my (erstwhile Limited) shotgun. Does that count as a "weight or device to control recoil?"

I love discussing rules; especially ones easily destroyed with logic and/or real world instead of "perfect world" facts. Some folks have noticed that

And Flex, I'm sorry, but John Amidon IS THE LAW. He has set himself up as the arbitrator of all that is legal in Production, for example, and personally makes the final ruling on "rules" clarifications in USPSA. Having stood beside him and watched him "decide" that a neat new pistol (on display at the '05 Open Nationals) was "legal" (his word, not mine) for "USPSA Production", legal on his word and his word alone...listening to him lecture me that IPSC rule clarifcations were worthless for USPSA and that only his opinion was "right" (and that was the way it was)...I'm sorry, but John Amidon is The Big Kahuna and we are all are subject to His decisions. That is our game, and that is how we play it. Since I like the game (a lot), that is how I play too

Just like the USPSA Bylaws give complete, sole, with no discussion or input from anyone whatsoever ever every ever ever ever Amen, authority to decide everything about the USPSA (fill in the blank) Nationals to Mike Voigt. That is the way the rules read. No shades of gray. No maybe or maybe not. No "the close race goes to the runner." This is the way it is. Period.

And that is what happened with the flashlight thing. My opinion on the matter is clear. Of course, my opinion of what cute little countries with a handful of shooters each yet with only one vote just like the US...has done, UN-style, to ISPC is also clear. Which is better? Well, that is not so clear.

Maybe if we had a flashlight...err...sighting device...err...flashlight...

Alex

[Flexmoney]

Let's not go painting our NROI Director into the corner of "I'm the King". That isn't fair.

To cut through the rhetoric:

"The BOD of USPSA currently are the definitive body that decides the rules for USPSA, this also includes any interpretations rendered by NROI. As the handgun competition rules handbook states, "USPSA Version", any interpretations given

will come from NROI with approval from the BOD, as US 11.8.3 indicates.

To maintain some sort of consistency, NROI prior to rendering a interpretation related to IPSC rules, will discuss the issue with IPSC, but it is the BOD for

USPSA that will make the final decision on the validity or not, of the interpretation.

If the interpretation is not shown on the USPSA web page, under NROI rulings,

it does not exist, therefore, any IPSC interpretations currently given, do not effect the USPSA version until they are approved and posted on our web page.

Hope this helps clear the issue up.

Regards,

John Amidon

D-NROI "

[SinistralRifleman]

I just illuminate my targets with muzzle flash!

http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/vids/stage-10-Russell.wmv

load up some cartridges with some nice bright flash powder and you are good to go! w00t!

Frankly weapons mounted lights are SAFETY devices as far as I am concerned that allow the shooter to positively ID the targets and be conscious of their muzzle orientation in a low light environment...it should also make it easier and safer for the RO in low light stages to be aware of the shooter's muzzle orientation.

just my $0.02

Edited October 20, 2005 by SinistralRifleman

[wgnoyes]

Frankly weapons mounted lights are SAFETY devices as far as I am concerned...it should also make it easier and safer for the RO in low light stages to be aware of the shooter's muzzle orientation.

"Running lights" on a gun? Yellow at the muzzle and red at the rear. How 'bout if the shooter decides to back up, could there white lights on the rear that light up to warn the RO, and maybe an audible "beep-beep-beep" for big/long guns?

Edited October 20, 2005 by wgnoyes