SVI Failure to Eject

[WFargo]

I have a problem I really hope you guys can help me with.

 

I've also sent an email to Brandon at SVI and am awaiting reply, and I've sent the same email to Jurgen Flass at SVI Germany.

I'm just desperate for advice, so I'm sharing my problem here as well...

 

Anyways, I am the proud owner of a Strayer Voigt Infinity open pistol in caliber .38 SA.

I have purchased this pistol from another shooter a few years ago.

Strayer Voigt informed me that it left the factory as a ‘frame kit’ in 1998 and was shipped to Germany.

 

The problem is, that I have constant ‘failures to eject’.

The pistol does not eject the fired casing, but pushes it back againt the barrel hood, crushing the casing.

Sometimes the pistol fires 50 rounds without this problem, sometimes it happens, a few times in a row.

 

I have done the following to find the problem:

 

Casings:

- I only use ‘older style’ casings with the larger diameter rim.  I do not use ‘Super Comp’ casings with the smaller diameter rim.  The extractor does not hold the ‘Super Comp’ casings.

 

Extractor:

- extractor tension checked and is correct. It holds a spent casing on the centerline in place when shaking the pistol. And also when it is slightly lower then the centerline it also remains in place. (all checked according to the 'standard' for extractors)

- shape of the extractor: I have ‘bevelled’ the extractor as per instructions from custom 2011 gun builders in Holland and Belgium ( ‘Van Mulekom Schietsport’ (Holland) and Tom Govers from ‘Tom’s Custom shop’ (Belgium).

- The tip/edge of the extractor hook rides in the extractor groove, as it should (as far as I was told….)  

 

- the extractor was ‘clocking’ (rotating over its’ axle) because the firing pin stop plate did not engage with the groove in the extractor.

This I have solved by inserting a thin strip of metal in the firing pin stop groove of the extractor. The extractor does not rotate anymore.

 

 

Ejector:

- the extended ejector in the pistol was square and not yet shaped.  Upon advice from the above mentioned custom shops, I have shaped the ejector to ensure that it hits the casing high and left to ensure that the pistol ejects in a flat trajectory to the right.

- As you can see in the attached picture, there is a slide mounted Leupold Deltapoint installed. When I bought the pistol I already noticed that the right side of the frame of the Deltapoint was damaged.  I now know why this is.   The pistol ejects very erratic… sometimes five or six casing correctly ejected flat to the right, and then sometimes straigt upwards, hitting the red dot, causing the casing to fly forward on to the course!

 

 

Magazines, springs and loads:

 

- I have done a very thorough check with magazines, springs and loads.

- I have taken each individual magazine, tested spring tension, checked followers, looked for damage, and shot different loads from minor to major with three different powders (LOVEX D037.1, Vihtavuori 3N38, Vihtavuori N340 ) three different bullet weights, and even with magazines from fellow shooters.

- I have done the same with the main spring: I have tested an 8 pound, 10 pound and 12 pound spring, also again with the different loads and different bullet weights…

I have done this testing all by changing one thing at a time, making sure I could pin-point the problem…..

 

Nothing solved the problem…… With every load, every spring, every bullet weight, every magazine, every powder…. Erratic ejection of the casings, all over the place and hitting the red dot…. and from time to time a casing stuck between breech face and barrel hood.

 

Speaking to the custom guys, I asked: “what about the interchangeable breech face?”   Could it be that there is a breech face in my pistol for .40 instead of .38 SA??”

 

Why do I ask this?

I have tested the following:   When I place a cartridge under the extractor hook, I can push it up on the breech face, so high, that the ejector slides underneath the casing and does not eject it!   Should this be possible? Or is there maybe too much room for movement on my breech face???

 

 I am at a loss as to what I can and need to do.   I desperately want this pistol to work.   I am now shooting IPSC with my Glock 34 in Standard Division, simply because I cannot rely on my Strayer Voigt.

I really hope you guys have some advice for me…

 

[WFargo]

Below  a picture of a cartridge under the extractor, all the way up on the breech face. You can see here, that the ejector can pass underneath the case!! is this acceptable / normal?

Also a picture of how the extractor grips the cartridge: the tip of the hook rides in the groove of the rim.   I was told this is correct for a .38 SA.

And also two pictures of the shape of the ejector.

Edited October 27, 2016 by WFargo

[ltdmstr]

Well, to start, the nose on the extractor hook should not be contacting the recess cut in the case.  Pressure from the extractor should be on the rim and nowhere else.  I can clearly see light between the rim and the flat on the extractor where the contact should be.  With the extractor set up the way you have it, the nose of the extractor hook digs into the case as it feeds up from the magazine.  This leads to inconsistent feeding and ejection.  There may be other issues, but it's hard to tell what's going on from photos.

Edited October 27, 2016 by ltdmstr

[WFargo]

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree with you, but the 'stupid' thing is, that I was told the following by the 'experts'. .....

Bevel the bottom of the hook and the belly of the bottom groove on the extractor. On 45‑ caliber rounds, you want the rim to ride on the belly of the extractor.  However, for 40- and 38-caliber rounds, it works better if the edge of the hook rides in the extractor groove

 

So I was told explicitly that for .38SA the top of the hook should actually ride against the groove...

 

So option one is current situation, and possibly it should be like option two.....   

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by WFargo

[WFargo]

Look at this picture, if you like.

 

this is from Brazos customs website... THE  extractor tuning bible...  they say...

This picture shows how an extractor should grab a .38 SA case...    exactly like how mine is...

So, I don't know any more.....   I believe my extractor is positioned correctly as this is what everybody, except for LTDMSTR, is saying....  but what does it matter, because it doesn't solve my problem....

[Powder Finger]

not to disagree with experts but I have found over the years that the way Itdmstr said works best.

[ltdmstr]

2 hours ago, WFargo said:

Look at this picture, if you like.

 

this is from Brazos customs website... THE  extractor tuning bible...  they say...

This picture shows how an extractor should grab a .38 SA case...    exactly like how mine is...

So, I don't know any more.....   I believe my extractor is positioned correctly as this is what everybody, except for LTDMSTR, is saying....  but what does it matter, because it doesn't solve my problem....

 

That's really not what "everybody" is saying.  In fact, most gunsmiths I know set up the extractor the way I do (as shown on the right).  I learned the trade from John Nowlin a long time ago, and that's how he taught me to do it.  If you want a more definitive authority, you can check the Kuhnhausen books, which truly are the Bible for 1911s.  He makes the exact same point I do regarding how to set up the extractor with no contact on the hook.  If you want, I'll look it up and give you the exact page number.  Also, I have yet see an explanation from Brazos or anyone else as to why it's beneficial to have the extractor hook dig into the case like that.  I'm always willing to learn, so if there's a valid argument for it, I'd like to know.  But getting back to your extraction issue, since the gun doesn't work the way it is, why not change the extractor and see if that solves the problem? 

[js1130146]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

That's really not what "everybody" is saying.  In fact, most gunsmiths I know set up the extractor the way I do (as shown on the right).  I learned the trade from John Nowlin a long time ago, and that's how he taught me to do it.  If you want a more definitive authority, you can check the Kuhnhausen books, which truly are the Bible for 1911s.  He makes the exact same point I do regarding how to set up the extractor with no contact on the hook.  If you want, I'll look it up and give you the exact page number.  Also, I have yet see an explanation from Brazos or anyone else as to why it's beneficial to have the extractor hook dig into the case like that.  I'm always willing to learn, so if there's a valid argument for it, I'd like to know.  But getting back to your extraction issue, since the gun doesn't work the way it is, why not change the extractor and see if that solves the problem? 

In order to achieve that type of contact, you just file down the tip of the hook until it fits as desired?

[theWacoKid]

There's no need for your gun to eject low and to the right.  Be absolutely sure the cases you think are ejecting weak or high are not actually cases ejecting very flat, hitting the bottom of the ejection port, and caroming upwards or back into the gun.  Tuning your ejector to eject flat may be the complete opposite of what you actually need to do.  I am working through the same problem.

[ltdmstr]

39 minutes ago, js1130146 said:

In order to achieve that type of contact, you just file down the tip of the hook until it fits as desired?

For the most part, yes.  On a new extractor, you may have to alter the shape of the nose for clearance.  Looks like the OPs extractor was already modified (looks rounded).  The extractor in photo 3 would probably be fine if you just trimmed the hook.  There's some other steps to tuning the extractor, but this is the most important.

[WFargo]

@ LTDMSTR, thanks for this info!  And you're absolutely right. As the gun is not functioning properly anyway, I will file down the hook of the extractor to ensure the rim rides against the bellly and see what this does.

@ TheWacoKid    I've managed to get a high speed camera from a buddy of mine, so I can make some slow motion footage of the gun cycling....  you could very well be right about the gun actually ejecting too low, causing the casings to bounce up again.... 

Thanks for your help, guys! I'll let you know what happens.

[WFargo]

@ ltdmstr:  I have altered the extractor so that the rim makes contact with the 'belly' of the extractor and the hook no longer touches the case (very, very thin clearance)

I have filed down the 'locator pad' of the extractor to make sure the tension is sufficient on the case.

I shot the pistol yesterday probably close to a hundred rounds.   No malfunctions at all!  ( I hope I don't jinx it....)

ltdmstr, thank you very much for your advice. Wow, the sollution was this simple.... (also thanks to Powder finger and TheWacoKid )

I'm a happy camper with a reliable Strayer Voigt Infinity.

[Powder Finger]

cool, good outcomes are always GOOD!

BTW when I shot an open gun set up that way I quit counting @ 25,000 rounds without a jam of any kind.

[WFargo]

That's good to hear, Powder Finger. I hope my setup will have the same result.

[ltdmstr]

Happy to hear it worked out for you.  Good luck and hope it keeps running.  Looks like a nice pistol.