2005 Area 7 Championship

[Rob Boudrie]

I would suggest that when apps come in together that they initally be put on the same squad and then let people move if they chose. Just remember that this is a low tech sport with a few hi tech geeks that actually enjoy computers the rest of us use them for email and match results.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like this idea.

The only "catch" if we do this is that it will have to be simple - the match would put a single application or batch in the requested squad if possible, but match registration does not get involved in "fine tuning" squads; moving people around; etc.

We are trying to use this as a tool, not an end in itself. If we can identify ways to better serve the competitors, we will. ... but, we sometimes need help from the competitors to identify what those ways are.

If you see this next year, and it's likley you will, be sure to thank yourself for it.

[L1011]

Rob,

The 2006 Area 7 Match is also scheduled to be at Rochester Brooks. We hope

to have additional pistol bays built by then. To address the squadding issue there

are two thing we could consider doing.

1. Leave the online squadding at 8 squads (even though we can handle 10 with

additional bays) and keep two squads open, per start time, for entire squads who

are bored and have nothing better to do that weekend.

or,

2. Offer a 10-20% discount for FULL squads, registering together, early. An early

bird special. Good only in the first 60 days of the registration period.

BTW: As an RO, I think the PDA's worked GREAT! Hope we can have them back

next year. I appreciate the amount of work required (by you) to make them run

smoothly. Thanks for you hard work and dedication to USPSA.

Mike

(Don't let 1% ruin it for the other 99)

[Rob Boudrie]

(Don't let 1% ruin it for the other 99)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I welcome comments from people who were not satisfied with some aspect of any match I help run, provided they are interested in giving information which will help us do better next time. Chris has done exactly that.

It's nice to hear the "great job" comments, but the ones that really help are those that lead to improvements. When I have the talks with the match staff, I'm probably going to spend more time discussing details which could be improved rather than wasting it on self-congratulation.

Rob

[L1011]

Guess I got that communication thing all screwed up again.

[BSeevers]

The match and RO's were great. Of special note was good food. I hope you get more bays then it will be a perfect Area shoot. I hate sharing bays.

I have serious reservations about Palm scoring. We had to resort to paper on quite a few runs because of malfunctions and the real concern was on a stage where a RO entered wrong times. He did it to a shooter before me so I paid attention to my time and it was wrong too. Normally I wouldn't have paid that much attention and this mistake would have cost me 5 secs and a plaque. It could have happened more times on our squad but I went into "paster" mode after my run.

I know you can enter wrong times with a pen but this was a combination of an older RO who had probably never touched a Palm in his life and an RO with bad eyes/coordination?. For me he entered 18.60 instead of 13.60 the RO called out and later verified on timer to correct. He did the Exact same thing to a shooter a couple runs before me so I was paying attention. I don't think he would have done it twice in 1 squad with a pen. Hopefully it never happens.

All in all it was a great Area match and I would recommend it

[Sestock]

Great Match

One thing I would recommend for next year would be a scheduled break time in the middle of the day for shooters and staff to eat.

[Jake Di Vita]

Actually I thought it was fantastic without the scheduled time break. Between stages there was more than enough time to grab some chow and we got done much faster without a break. I personally hate breaks in the middle of the day because it really drags it out big time....then if squads don't all get started at the same time after the break you have nightmares for backups.

[Rob Boudrie]

I have serious reservations about Palm scoring. We had to resort to paper on quite a few runs because of malfunctions and the real concern was on a stage where a RO entered wrong times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The RO's should be giving each shooter a chance to see thier scores on the Palm as well as the summary sheet. In addition, if any shooter sees a difference between their copy of the hit/time summary sheet and the posted score, they have until midnight tonite to report it to me. I will check the original paper summary sheet and make any necessary correction, as the signed paper copy is the definitive copy in the event of any issue.

I can assue you that competitors on Sat and Sun would not have been able to check their scores as they left if we scored manually. In some cases, the scores made it ot the network in the clubhouse before the competitors got there.

[Glock35]

Rob, Mike,

The only negative issue would have to be running multiple stages in bays. Usually one is bad enough but two can be murder. My first score sheet on Saturday was timed at 2:30 and my last was at 8:36. That makes for a very long day with an hour and 15 minute drive back to Buffalo.

Rob,

Thanks for fixing the scoring issue. I have been close to minor at both the Florida Open and Area 6. To finally have had a healthy PF and still get scored minor was enough to give me a complex.

Larry

[GTOSHootr]

Even though my shooting sucked, I had a fun time at the match.

The Palm scoring is great. I think the problems must be a result of people not being used to them yet. Give them time. Check out a Harvard, MA match sometime to see their potential. The electronic scores are backed up by a paper sheet and the shooter reviews and signs the sheet with a tear off tab they get to keep, so I felt pretty comfortable that I could catch a mistake. Having the terminals with the results posted quickly in the clubhouse allowed me to do that before I left the range.

I did notice ATVs were going too fast sometimes.

The food was too good. I think I slowed down after the second hot dog and the chicken sandwich.

It was nice to meet a few forums members too, Mig, Jake, MattT. We spent some quality time trying to stay dry during the rain.

Thanks, Steve Lyons

[BSeevers]

I have serious reservations about Palm scoring. We had to resort to paper on quite a few runs because of malfunctions and the real concern was on a stage where a RO entered wrong times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The RO's should be giving each shooter a chance to see thier scores on the Palm as well as the summary sheet. In addition, if any shooter sees a difference between their copy of the hit/time summary sheet and the posted score, they have until midnight tonite to report it to me. I will check the original paper summary sheet and make any necessary correction, as the signed paper copy is the definitive copy in the event of any issue.

I can assue you that competitors on Sat and Sun would not have been able to check their scores as they left if we scored manually. In some cases, the scores made it ot the network in the clubhouse before the competitors got there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am all for being able to check scores and see the potential for Palm scoring.

That's not the problem. CRO runs shooter Time is 13.60. CRO calls out 13.60!! Other RO following CRO with either sight or coordination problems enters 18.60 on Palm. Shooter pays no attention to time. RO goes back to scorekeeper and calls out hits and then incorrect time HE entered 18.60. As stated this happened twice that I know of. I just watched my scores the rest of the match and it only happened to me on one stage

If the shooter is not paying attention then he loses 5 or more seconds. It almost happened twice on our squad on the same stage.

No RO offered any person on our squad a look at the Palm but I will remember that next time. We were told by CRO's at least twice that the Tear off sheets were the final word and were double checked so no need to worry if Palm was wrong the scorekeeper would always go by the sheet not the Palm entry.

Just giving feedback on a potential problem.

PS I witnessed the crash by the 11-12 year old and they were driving kinda fast all day. Hope he is ok.

PSS It was a good match and I would shoot it next year with no changes. well especially with 2 more bays

[Jake Di Vita]

Didn't they enter the scores on the sheet FROM the palm??????

If so, it seems that protective measure is very near moot.

[Rob Boudrie]

Didn't they enter the scores on the sheet FROM the palm??????

If so, it seems that protective measure is very near moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not moot at all. Proection covers:

1. Loss of data in Palm - for example, dropping one.

2. Typo on the Palm not caught by the shooter. It may be possible to enter "808 seconds" in the Palm, but no RO will accidently enter "808" instead of "8.08" on paper.

3. Consumer confidence. If a shooter wonders if their score is accurate, they can check.

4. Datat not stoered in the Palm. If the RO hits the restart button, instead of done, a score will be lost. That happened to a few (single digit) scores, but they were all recovered from paper without further RO or shooter involvement.

[Jake Di Vita]

But moot to the point that whatever is recorded in the palm within reason (for example, a time of 18 instead of 13) will not be questioned and the wrong time will in fact be recorded twice as being right.

[GTOSHootr]

I know what Jake means. The paper tear off tabs are not independent of the Palm. What I meant is that the paper lets you see what was entered into the Plam and every shooter shooter gets to review that, so your scores for each stage are accessible for review as much as if they were done on paper alone. If you check out and sign that paper right after you review your targets, the scores on the Palm are there to argue until the next shooter is scored. The pace is different but moves everything along.

Steve

[Rob Boudrie]

RO's call out the time, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to verify that this is correctly recorded. This is equally true of paper or Palm based scoring.

[Chriss Grube]

I've been hosed on paper scores sheets so the palm has the same potential. The biggest problem I saw was the fact that some of the RO's were not really sure of themself with the palm. We had a guy get a reshoot and they had some problems handleing the reshoot on the palm. I think they were trying to get the shooters through fast and were scoring right behind on some stages which may not be the best option. Maybe write the time from the timer on the paper then verify with the palm?

[Bruno]

Chris, I CRO'ed stage 7. We we're lucky to have 3 workers on the stage. When the RO that was running the shooter called out the time, we immediately recorded the time on the palm and on the paper scoresheet. After the stage was scored we verified the time and the hits. This only works if you have enough people to work the stages. We did have a few minor problems with the scoring system. Even though you could control some of the contrast on the screen, the sun light really fades the screen in and out.

Jim Kosicki

[L1011]

I was an RO on stage 5 when Bill had his 18.60 vs 13.60 problem. However,

the method we used on our stage worked. Our CRO, showed each shooter his time

immediately after the run and call it out to the "palm pilot".

When the time and score was recorded on paper. Bill, rightfully, objected. The

CRO was consulted and the paper time corrected. The error could have been

made on paper or computer with the same ease.

After Bill's run we change our method slighty. The CRO re-confirmed the time

called to the score keeper just before the next run.

It's important to remember is that each shooter only had 10 runs to keep straight.

Each CRO/RO had 254 runs to keep straight.

What became a larger issue is that we could not correct the time on the computer.

Once the run is entered the palm would not allow editing of the time. We had to call

Stats down to deal with the issue.

The other issue with using the palms was the ability to show each shooter their hits

and time on the palm. Trying achieve a 3-4 minute cycle time for each shooter

made this nearly impossible, since the palm was needed to score the next shooter

immediately after transferring the scores to paper. There is definate room for

improvement here. Possibly two palms per stage ?? or a hard copy print of the

run ???

In all I thought the palms worked well. On stage 5 we had 2 issues out of

254 runs. Not a bad percentage. I wonder how many problems were had out of

the 2540 runs for the whole match ???

Mike

[Rob Boudrie]

What became a larger issue is that we could not correct the time on the computer.

Once the run is entered the palm would not allow editing of the time. We had to call

Stats down to deal with the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was a learning curve issue. We were running with a group of recently Palm trained RO's, so I decided to "Stick to the basics" in training.

Also, all RO's were provided with paper scoresheets (full ones, not just summary slips) which could be used if they had a shooter ready but had a Palm problem.

Keep in mind, shooters at all times (except some of the Thurs/Friday RO shooters) were able to see there scores and match standings to date as they left the range. It is possible (given enough staff) to have paper finals *start* to print 5 minutes or so after the last shot. It's not possible to have them *posted* that quickly, or to put up multiple interim postings. As the match wrapped up, we posted new stats each time the "final delivery" was made from a stage... and those shooters willing to put up with 90_heat/100% humidity were there watching. I suspect we would have had more checking results on the spot if the clubhouse were cool and had refreshements available.

Rob

[wide45]

Bruno, you might remember on Friday there were 2 of us working both stages 6 and 7. We had it rough.

Your reshoot was the only problem I remember having with the Palms on friday. I think we were told to go to paper for reshoots, but at the time I did not remember that. I could not figure out how to get out of your # without finishing scoring the stage, so we could go on to the next competitor. In hindsight, I should have entered dummy hits. Found out later while working stage 9, that I could go back into a score after it was saved, edit, and resave it.

One thing that is a constant problem is having to chase down the competitors to get scores initialed. When we had a spare worker to do that, he did not have the palm to show. Most of the time I was calling them over to where I was filling out the paper trail. The guys that care, stick close to the scorekeeper. Many don't, and slow down the stage.

The learning curve was steep. It did not help that the first time we really got to use the Palms, was on competitors at a major match. Rob was pushing us to use the Palms on the RO's Friday morning. We were running late, and didn't feel we had the time for them. It speaks well of the Palm scoring system that we had as few problems as we did.

[Rob Boudrie]

Things rarely work out exactly as expected.

The original plan was to use the Palms at the GCL Firecracker match near Rochester, however, that event ended up being scheduled after this one.

The next plan was to have the RO's learn on the Palms during their shoot time. Some RO's tried; others did not want to distract from their shooting learning a new system - and I could not fault this decision since they were already making a tremendous sacrifice showing up to work 3 days straight (more in some cases) on a weekend which was the hottest and most uncomfortable of the season to date. They were entitled to enjoy shooting the match.

We had an ambitious squadding schedule, heat and humidity which made it hard to maintain energy for the entire day, and had to suspend shooting for a while on sunday AM during a downpour.

All in all, I am very impressed with the stamina and perseverence of the RO's. I was exhausted at the end of the weekend, and all I did was some computer setup, stats running, training and support.

I don't want to even think about what it would have been like entering 2,540 scoresheets in the clubhouse which was hotter than the ranges. I do know that the match director did not have extra staff to spare, and it's unlikley we would have had this done during the match.

[Bruno]

Wide45

I don't recall the palm being the issue on my reshoot. It was just something to blame under the circumstances.

-Shot stage 7 in 12-13 second range

-Target gets taped before scoring.

-Reshoot without turning the C-More back on.

-Second run at 17 seconds.

-NOPE, it wasn't the palm pilot!

You're right about one thing though, 2 workers on a stage just sucked.

JK

[BSeevers]

I was trying to give true blunt constructive feedback. I hope none take it personal. I ran a stage all this weekend as the CRO at the OH section and I know what it takes to put on a major. In fact I just got back and also tore it down, pretty much by myself. All RO's work hard and are appreciated.

I hope you can get Palm to work since as I said. I am all for results waiting at the clubhouse when I leave. Sounds like you are on track to do that.

[Rob Boudrie]

Matches don't get better by colleting attaboys. They improve by listing to those with constructive feedback, looking for things that can be done better, and trying to see comments from the point of view of the customer, not the match staff.

My thanks to Bill Seevers and others for feedback.