cybrosh Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 Heya, I've read somewhere that 9mm NATO shouldn't be used in regular 9mm pistols(that can't handle +P pressure). Correct? I don't see any indication on the box of Winchester 9mm NATO of +P/+ or anything. It does state "Pressure Levels Exceed Industry Standards", and the fact "These Cartridges loaded to military velocity and pressure which is higher than 9mm luger cartridges; average pressure is 10% higher than industry standard pressure for 9mm luger". Can I use these with my IPSC SPS modified pistol without worrying too much? Cheers, Cy' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 If you break your gun I will deny any knowledge of this conversation. However, as the NATO armies use warehouses full of the stuff, I would hardly expect it to break guns at anything approaching a regular rate. As an example, regular SAAMI-spec 9mm is 34,000 psi. +P is something like (I'm working from memory here) 38.5K. So if NATO ammo is 10% over standard, that would make it.....38.4K. Consider that to make Major we subject our Open guns to something on the order of 45Kpsi pressures, I don't think a steady diet of NATO ammo is going to be a problem. Now, if you're shooting it out of some compact little hideaway gun, it might cause more wear. Mostly to your shooting wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybrosh Posted April 7, 2005 Author Share Posted April 7, 2005 Hi Patrick, THanks for replying. WInchester said and I quote he round is a higher pressured round. You should check with the gun manufacturer to see if the gun can shoot a higher pressured round without any problems. I've approached SPS which are not familiar with the specific cartridge. Waiting for a more detailed answer from them. Cheers, Cy' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 NATO 9mm ammo typically generates around 42,000 psi. At least according to SAAMI when I asked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 7, 2005 Share Posted April 7, 2005 Consider that to make Major we subject our Open guns to something on the order of 45Kpsi pressures, I don't think a steady diet of NATO ammo is going to be a problem. Thing is, on an Open gun the action is held closed by the comp, pushing down on the front of the barrel, at the moment of ignition. The slide doesn't begin to move to the rear until the recoil impulse has significantly abated, thus you don't get nearly the gun battering slide velocity with hot ammo in a compgun that you do in an uncompensated, conventional pattern auto pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Out to the range the other day, chronographing. So I threw a box of W-W Ranger 9 mm NATO ammo in the mix. The results: Kahr PM9, 2.97" bbl 1090 fps Kahr P9, 3.47" 1133 Ruger P95 3.90" 1169 S&W 910 4.04" 1169 BHP 4.77" 1247 BHP 6.03" 1252 Hot stuff, but not the hottest ammo I've ever touched off in 9mm. Note that the longest barrels posted a PF approximately 155. 42K, Duane? Are you sure about that? That seems like a bit much for the small velocity increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 If I remember correctly, Winchester white box 124gr "NATO" shoots just over 1100fps in my pistols, while Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr shoots about 1310. Pressure != velocity, I know... SAAMI spec is 35,000psi. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 42K, Duane? Are you sure about that? That seems like a bit much for the small velocity increase That's what SAAMI told me. I have to wonder if the Winchester stuff you chronoed is loaded to the full pressure potential of the NATO spec. If memory serves me correctly - and remember, I am doing this from memory, though I'm pretty darn sure this is the case - the pressure specs for 9mm Para are: (1) SAAMI spec for standard pressure 9mm Para: 35,000 psi. (2) SAAMI spec for 9mm +P: 38,500 psi. (3) There's no SAAMI pressure spec for +P+, that's just a way of saying that pressures exceed +P standards. (4) NATO spec: 42,000 psi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Checked my records, the above information is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Thanks. I'll have to convince one of my industry contacts to run some ammo through a pressure gun for me. I wonder if I can convince him to test some 9mm Major, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Just give it to them and don't tell them what it is. They are the experts let them tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Waring Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Is there different bullet weights for the Nato ammunition? A friend of mine that is in the Canadian Military I thought told me once that there were lots produced with different bullet weights, I just can't remember if not 124gr if it was 115gr or heavier than 124. 124gr I believe is the standard weight? I have shot lots of this ammunition in the past, through CZ's and the stuff is pretty hot compared to standard velocity 9x19. I would think that in a longer barrelled Open gun it would make major at least be pretty close, and Cybrosh your gun should chew it up no problem if you consider the guns around the world that are using this ammunition, your SPS would be OK I would think. The ammunition you guys are talking about, what is on the headstamp for markings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 NATO-approved ammo will have a circle with a cross in it as part of the headstamp. And for some reason, my recollection is that NATO ammo can be from 100 to 124 grains. But I can't remember where I know that from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 NATO ammo is really hot...don;t know the real pressure, but don;t think 10k worth of it would destroy your guns....the problem is that it got a really bad rap when 1k practice sessions were normal for lots of us shooting...we were more into live fire than dry fire...felt I wasn't getting anything from it if it did not go boom....all that has changed now since chatting with Steve Anderson on line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybrosh Posted April 13, 2005 Author Share Posted April 13, 2005 Hi Guys, I really appreciate the answers and interest in the thread. Official Answers from SPS - as long as the factor is below 200, ok. Meaning - 124gX1185/1000=146 NATO round are stamped - circle with a cross. 124g is standard. NATO rounds are higher pressured rounds. *Most Ammo companies to my knowledge, do not manufacture NATO ammunition, unless an order is submitted. **Don't forget my SPS, is modified. 3 port hybrid barrel(Lothar-Arms), not standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybrosh Posted April 14, 2005 Author Share Posted April 14, 2005 Interesting... Just found a NATO 115g, by IMI. http://www.imisammo.co.il/10111.htm http://www.imisammo.co.il/com_8.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybrosh Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 Hey guys, Took part in the Israeli National Championship today(IPSC)and had the chance to use the CED Millenium Chronograph to test my ammunition with my modified pistol. The weight of the bullt was 124.1 The speed was(consistently)1185!!! And to think I'm using a hybrid(internal)compensator of 3 holes! Which is 146! Getting closer to Major!!! for 9mm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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