Activators/carrying Objects

[kevin c]

I'm trying to debug a stage I'm building for an upcoming major match. What is pertinent here is that the shooter is supposed to drop an item, carried from another location, into a box that contains an activator pad. The activator drops two port covers that open up two arrays of static targets which are not otherwise visible. In carrying the object, the shooter will pass some other targets, one of which the stage description will specify must be shot while holding the object. The object must be put into the box prior to the last shot fired on the COF. A number of wiser heads than I offered some critiques, and while I think I have them all covered, I would like to be sure that I will have the right stuff written in the WSB, and that the proper rules are cited in case of incident:

First, what happens if the shooter doesn't have the object in his posession (defined as "in hand") while shooting the target specified as the one to be shot "in possession"? This seems to be a straightforward procedural per shot up to a max of two per target, for not complying with the stage requirements (10.2.2/10.2.3).

Second, what if the shooter fails to open the ports by putting the object in the box? I think that this will be a 9.5.6/10.2.7 FTSA procedural and two misses per unaddressed target. The shooter might argue that the targets are not shootable since they can't be seen, but it is a condition of the stage that he activate the ports appropriately. BTW, does 9.9.3 apply here? That is the rule for failing to activate a moving target, but there isn't direct comparable language for activating something that exposes targets.

Third, what if the shooter tanks the first part of the stage, then jams the object into the box crosswise, but not activating the pad, and then claims REF and wants a reshoot? The first proposal was to cut the hole in the box big enough to make sure the blasted item will fall through, no matter what. Some though, argue that, again, the condition set in the WSB is to activate the ports, and if not, 9.5.6/10.2.3 will apply.

Then, what if the shooter throws the item at the box, and, inadvertently or otherwise, it sails over the surrounding barricades w/o activating the pad in the box, and the shooter says now he can't get the item without going outside the COF? Is this a reshoot? Most again argue that the conditions of the WSB haven't been met by the shooter, and that because of his own actions. Therefore 9.5.6/10.2.3 still apply.

In this last case, if the shooter says he can't get the object, if the RO says yes you can, is that coaching? To avoid this, should the WSB specify that the shooter has the responsibility to maintain control and possession of the object?

Other points I'd like to get clear in my mind:

The score, regardless of how the COF is terminated, unless a reshoot is given, will use the time to the last shot, right? So it shouldn't matter that the shooter stopped or was stopped because he couldn't or wouldn't shoot at or activate the ports to shoot at the last targets?

Would there be a procedural assessed (one) for not having the item in the box before the last shot, in the last three scenarios?

I'm overthinking this, aren't I?

[Nik Habicht]

First --- it's freestyle, which means you can't specify that the item must be carried in a hand. There are ways to help you with this --- but you need a really tricky, experienced designer to make it bullet proof. If the shooter can tuck the item under his arm, or put it in his mouth, or stuff it in a pocket, he can.....

Second: Had a stage like this at the MASC last year. You had to pick up a weighted ammo can and set it on a swing arm which opened a port, while closing another. To reverse the activation of the ports, the shooter was allowed to knock the ammo box off the perch. There was a penalty of one procedural per shot fired for activating the port opened by setting the box on it's rest, by any other means ---i.e. by holding it open with a hand. The box was placed on the range early enough in the course of fire, surrounded by enough obstacles, that no shooter would have wanted to double back to pick it up after engaging a bunch of targets that were best engaged while carrying the box. Such a thing might help you with your first scenario. If you make the targets you want shot onehanded easy enough --- no one will be tempted to drop the box and then pick it up again. Make 'em too tough --- and people will set it down.

Three: Same thing that happens if you have two ports with poppers activating a hidden moving target behind the other port ---- the shooter shows up, sees the mover not moving, yells REF, and is informed by the RO that it's not REF because the popper is still standing. It's up to the shooter to activate the port/targets --- it's not REF if they foul that up.....

There's nothing in the rulebook that prevents a shooter from crossing fault lines --- only stuff that prevents him from shooting while out of bounds. Want to keep a shooter from going out of bounds --- put up walls.......

All of these problems are solveable by design ---- if you're cludging up the stage description with much more than "On signal engage all targets" you need to go back to the drawing board and design/build it out a little more. Also don't be too discouraged when the super squad finds a hole in your design.......

[omnia1911]

I think you need to simplify your stage design. Gadgets and gizmos as part of a stage design significantly increase the possibility of REF, and increase the possibility of the stage being tossed. If you have to add a lawyerly rider to the course description in order to control what a shooter may do (game) during his COF, you probably should rethink the stage design.

Having said all that....

I'm guessing that you are trying to prevent a shooter from depositing the object into the activator box after engaging all of the targets, and while off the clock, thus, technically complying with the stage description and avoiding any penalties.

One way to make sure that the shooter has the object in hand while engaging the first array of targets is to put enough distance between where the object is to be picked up and where the first array of targets are, so that it would add considerable time to run to the first array and engage the targets, run back to pick up the object, then to retrace ground that you had already covered to get to the second array of targets.

Want to keep the object out of someone's mouth? Make it heavy enough, and of such an odd shape and size, it wouldn't be a consideration. You want it in the shooter's hand instead of tucked under their arm to force strong hand only shots? Why? Let the shooter decide how to manage those shots. It's freestyle.

Not knowing how your stage is laid out, none of this may apply, or there may be other possible solutions.

Your stage design seems to veer away from the freestyle philosophy of the rule book. Being that this stage is for a major match, was it approved of by NROI?

[johnhurd]

I am busting my azz reading this set the object at the start of the course and just tell them engage targets when available and the object has to be in the box before the last shot......... Or better yet set it in the middle and watch the sprinters try and out run strong hand launched bullets. seems simple to me if the object is not in hte box befoer the last shot then ya gives em a DNF . Bill Clinton would love this COF "it depends how you define last shot and " in the box" "

PS that thing about carrying it in your mouth there ought to be a rule only the first guy can do that semi safely. The next COF that I have to shoot where that is a option unless there is a new prop for each shooter I am going to protest it. At very least disinfectent. Because I don't care if you are gunnies I don't know where you had your mouth last............ sorry for the hi-jack back to your regular programing.

[Jim Norman]

Frankly, if you knew where some of those mouths were, you sure as heck wouldn't put anything that was there first in your mouth.

But seriously, you bring up a very good point. In today's environment, the chances, no matter how slight of contracting something should preclude this practice and even be against the rules, unless as you say, there is anew prop for each and every shooter and a sufficent number for reshoots.

Otherwise, simply require that the object be placed in the box prior to ENGAGING the last target.

Jim

[Jake Di Vita]

See I'm not too squemish about things like that.....my dad worked in the restaurant business for 20 years so I know what actually goes into your food.

When you think about that, a few germs doesn't really raise much of a flag....just bring some listerine with ya.

[johnhurd]

Good to know Listerene kills STDs and HIVs and Herpes, will file that information away

[Jake Di Vita]

Man I don't know what you been stickin in your mouth but I don't usually stick things in mine that can give me an STD or HIV.....you'll get over herpes.

[johnhurd]

B etter keep practicing for that sub 3 sec El Prez cuz you aren't doing to well on your pre meds

.you'll get over herpes.

[zorba]

Technicaly i dont think you can say in the stage briefing "before last shot fired" we are having the same problems sorting a stage for our provintial champs.

[kevin c]

Thanks for the suggestions.

My understanding that the course design and the WSB have been OK'd at what ever level a USPSA Tournament level match needs to be. But I was also told that things can be changed as necessary.

The activator object is going to be located so that picking it up, carrying it in hand, and shooting one handed (on just one target) on the way to the drop off box is the fastest and easiest thing to do. The shooter needs to use the object to open the ports, so picking it up sometime is necessary. If they want to go back for it, or put it down while shooting, that isn't a major issue for me. I'd just thought it'd be fun to try to get some SHO shooting in there, and one of the critiquers felt specifying a specific target to be shot w/ the object "in hand" was a way to do this.

What I'm hearing is that specifying SHO, object in hand/in possession, or saying that the object has to be in the box prior to the last shot/engagement is potentially dicey. That hasn't been a problem at our local matches, but I grant you that that's only club/Level I.

I think saying basically shoot 'em as you see 'em, and noting that the ports can only be opened by dropping the object into the activator box to expose otherwise unaddressable targets, will cover most of my concerns. I realize now that the suggestion on saying "prior to the last shot/engagement" isn't needed, since they can't shoot at the last targets unless the object is in the box. Target placement and the starting location of the activating object will cover the rest.

To be truly freestyle, the shooter will have to have the option of dealing with the object as he pleases while shooting at targets on the way to the box. BTW, the activator is a plastic 4# powder keg with an integral handle. It will be weighted so that holding it by the handle is the easiest and most secure carry, but I'm sure there will be variations. I tried the mouth carry trick - unless you have a mouth like Mick Jagger, it won't be easy.

Does that cover it? If so, thanks again for the comments.

Kevin C.

[wide45]

Only a little squirrely

I'm starting to like the stage much better with the reduced verbiage.

Less is so often more...

[omnia1911]

I think leaving it optional for the shooter to engage any targets SHO while transporting the powder keg to the activator box is the best way to go. If it is the fastest way to shoot the stage, SHO will be used. Let the shooter figure it out.

Depending on the layout of the arrays, some shooters may put the object down while shooting, especially those that have to reload.

The stage procedure could be as simple as:

"Engage targets as they become visible. Ports must be opened by depositing the powder keg into the activator box."

I see no need to stipulate when the powder keg has to be dropped into the activator box. The COF will dictate that. The shooter has to get the ports open to see the targets (provided they are only visible through the ports). Therefore, it will be done before the last shot is fired.

It can get a little tricky adhering to the freestyle philosphy when dealing with props that require specific actions to make them work.

[Nik Habicht]

The stage procedure could be as simple as:

"Engage targets as they become visible. Ports must be opened by depositing the powder keg into the activator box."

After that sentence I'd add: "Activating the port(s) by any other means will result in one procedural per shot fired through the port(s).

That ought to cover it. One other suggestion: Make sure you have spare identical powder jugs. Consider taping the lids in place. Before the match is over, someone will have thrown or dropped the thing ---- make sure the contents aren't so heavy that you'll have a bursting problem, but are heavy enough to reliably trip the activator.

Sounds like it has potential to be a cool stage......

[Jim Norman]

Just a quick question no one has asked,

What match? Where? When?

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

BTW, does 9.9.3 apply here?

I believe that 9.9.3 only applies to "moving targets", not props.

Third, what if the shooter...jams the object into the box crosswise...then claims REF and wants a reshoot?

Build it so that it is "bullet-proof". The shooter shouldn't have to have a Master's in prop activation.

if the shooter says he can't get the object, if the RO says yes you can, is that coaching?

Yes. The RO needs to stick with using the RANGE COMMANDS...NO coaching allowed.

regardless of how the COF is terminated...will use the time to the last shot, right?

Yes.

[Flexmoney]

Make sure you have enough points behind the activating port to make it worth the effort (time) to engage those targets.

Depending on the likely hit factor, if you only had a target or two behind the ports...I might skip them...if it allowed me to save time by not having to shoot one-handed, haul a prop around, mess with activating a props, and waiting for the prop to activate so I could shoot targets. Then again, that might be a freestyle option that you would want to leave in there.

[kevin c]

Thank you, all!

The activator has been tested and worked flawlessly for 30 odd shooters in our last club match. Now, that isn't the same as the 200 odd expected at the Golden Bullet Sectional it will be used at (last weekend in July, in Richmond (Sorry, Jim, that's as in California, not VA, otherwise we might see ya )), but we overengineered everything, and even have a spare bear trap activator, if needed.

There will be duplicates of the activator object - it's a VihtaVouri powder jug, and I use LOTS of Viht. The bottom has been taped with SOOPERDOOPER duct tape, the 200 MPH kind ya can get from Cheaper Than Dirt. They'll be weighted with same amount of spent primers (I got LOTS of those, too!) and cushioned and sealed inside with that hardening spray foam insulation you can buy at Home Depot.

All set!

Thanks again!

Kevin C.

[Jim Norman]

Yup, California, been there, left nothing, no reason to return. Almost as bad as NJ. Maybe worse, we don't have earthquakes and wildfires.

Post a few pics of your stage and the activator in particular. We'd like to see it, never know when we might want to steel an idea (Opps, borrow)

Good luck on your match.

Jim Norman