what to get as a first 1911? (in europe)

[sn0wflake]

this is gonna be a long ass post!

All right. I'm in a shooting club and I have been a member for so long so I can now legally own several guns.

But most likely only 1 large caliber auto, for now.

So I've tried out many different platforms this last year and I've pretty much decieded on a 1911 (single stack) since they fit my hand the best.

I intend to compete with the gun in field competitions and also ipsc classic.

I have used 9mm smiths pros (really like those)

And several different .45 smiths PC, really nice ones.

Around here we can't get all the brands you have in the states since no one imports them. And private import wont work here.

But we can get:

ruger

smith

remington

sti

svi

sig

My friends are in the very top of practical shooting in europe (rifle and 2 gun mostly though) and they are not very helpful to me when selection my first gun and my first caliber.

But I have understood that with an svi i don't have to think about jack sh1t, its the best there is already from the start. no need to mod it, no need to send it to a smith, its already done at the factory.

And even though I'm a skilled machinist and highly knowledable hobby metallurgist I just want to buy a gun and shoot the sh1t out of it. and win.

so basically I have narrowed it down to either smith or sig 9mm (for around 15-1800€)

or maybe a sig (new style) 45 or a smith pro series 45 for the same money.

And then there are the sti's: I really hate the look of all their guns and I feel this is like the last option for me, and on top of that they seem to be of questionable quality to begin with.

So there are a few svi guns avaiable. And these look really nice. I can get these in 9/40/45 with different slide-styles to boot.

Considerations: The sigs and smiths can be had all stainless (i like that)

The svi's are 0% and 50% stainless only (might even be hard chromed), and they cost 100% more than the sigs and smiths.

Another consideration: 9mm is cheap to buy (about 0.2€ a pop), .40 and .45 (0.4-5€/pop) I would have to reload pretty much no matter what. to save money.

I intend to shoot this gun a lot, and I like pure quality. I don't mind paying to get quality. IF I actually see/notice the quality!

My friends says the svi's will be the cheapest in the long run. Buy once cry once kinda. It also has high resale value should that day come.

So this the background.

And now to my questions.

In your opinion shoud i get a nice gun or a sig/smith?

Should I get it in 9/40/45 (and why)?

Bear in mind I also shoot precision competitions in the woods (field comps), not only practical. But from what i have experienced I could have won those with the smith 9mm if i did my part (which i didn't )

[sn0wflake]

Also is it true that i HAVE TO reload if i go for a .40 1911?? (thinking svi)

Edited September 25, 2015 by sn0wflake

[wmetzler01]

You've answered your question already - by an svi.

If you buy an svi, you can have them make a 9mm upper for it and swap between 45 and 9mm. Or just purchase the 9mm svi.

[JWard79]

Not sure what is available in the way of aftermarket parts in your country, but the .40 with Tripp magazines can be loaded to 10 rounds allowing for major or minor capacity. The current trend in USPSA has leaned towards minor for the majority of major matches, with the exception of nationals. It may be worth looking at the current IPSC major match results in classic division to see if this would be a benefit where you shoot.

An SVI will be the best out of the box gun on your list, because it is a full custom with a full custom price tag. I own an STI Trojan and would not hesitate recommending it to some one looking for a single stack/classic division gun. With that said, if the parts are available and you have access to a good gunsmith or can do the work yourself a 1911 is a 1911.

[stardust tommy]

since you are in Europe (I'm from Belgium) you can buy SVI in Germany by Jurgen Flass... you want to go to Germany for repair work/waranty?

the SIG 1911 is made in USA, the Belgian imorter told me it is hard to get original parts... plenty of 1911 parts on the internet...

the S&W is with an external extractor, some say it is better... get 1 spare as replacement part

my choise would be a STI (Trojan or a sentry), you can choose ether bushing or bull barrel. get a custom bushing and swap the thumbsafety with a Wilson Combat.

al production guns need a triggerjob (exept the SVI)

in Belgium you can buy 2 STI pistols or 1 SVI for the same price. SVI is not always 100%

gr T

( I have a small shop building 1911 pistols as a hobby)

[StraightSh00ter]

Sig is a good gun. I have one as my first gun (Traditional Match Elite) and it is incredibly accurate and reliable. I am picky about quality too, and the Sig has met all my expectations. If I were doing it all over I would absolutely start with the Sig again. I'm looking for a second gun and might get something different, but it is hard to find something that feels and shoots as nice, especially for the price (I've shot quite a few pistols before buying my first, and still continue to try out different guns). That being said, SVI should be sweet and if you can afford it, go for it? I thought $1000 US was a lot to spend on my first gun so that was my limit, and thus the Sig. I would take the Sig before the S&W, but the S&W looks and feels nice and might not be bad for a second gun. But I'm looking at STI and maybe another Sig before the S&W.

Sig has an external extractor as well so maybe it's worth getting a spare? I don't know if there are any other OEM parts that are necessary, most 1911 parts are interchangeable. I've heard (internal) extractors are one of the parts in 1911's that cause problems. Sig uses the same style external extractor on the 1911 that they use on their other guns so it has a successful history. I like that it's easy to see, easy to feel spring tension or if it's stuck, and easy to replace if necessary. I don't know the exact history about external extractors, but the designer of the 1911 used them before AND AFTER the 1911 design was finally released which says something, to me at least. Some manufacturers have had problems with external extractors, but some have problems with internal extractors and Sig has proven their externals work fine.

I bought a reloading press just for 9mm as shooting over 1000rds/month of factory ammo adds up. There are other benefits to reloading - a heavier 9mm bullet loaded to minor power factor shoots really smooth. And the press now allows me to reload other calibers so .40 isn't such a big price jump.

I have heard some .40 guns like longer ammo, but I would specifically research whatever gun you want to buy and see if that is the case. I don't know if that's for 2011s only or for 1911s also, but I have a hard time believing an SVI 1911 in .40 won't run without 'special' ammo.

Edited September 26, 2015 by StraightSh00ter

[yellowfin]

.40 gives you the option to choose between major and minor without difficulty, and it is very economical to load. What is the brass availability like there, and also, can you get large primers easily if you go with .45? From the standpoint of spare parts, more parts are made for .45 1911's than others.

[sn0wflake]

.40 gives you the option to choose between major and minor without difficulty, and it is very economical to load. What is the brass availability like there, and also, can you get large primers easily if you go with .45? From the standpoint of spare parts, more parts are made for .45 1911's than others.

Hi. brass seems to be available. I'm in one of the more liberal european countries.

Basically I can get whatever I want around here regarding brass and bullets. However 40 and 45 seems to fairly similar priced regarding bullets and cases. 9mm is significantly cheaper. If I get a 9mm I would probably just buy off the shelf ammo, shoot that and when I have 10k or so cases I would reload them.

I wasn't aware there was different 45 primer holes. I will have to talk to my buddies and see how common this is (2 different kinds that is).

Preferably I would like to not have to reload 2 different types of 45 cases.

40 is popular here. But hey If I'm shooting major I might just as well get a 45. the 45 platform seems to be better ironed out by now. And I) pretty much want no trouble.

I might be odd or something but i can shoot 45 as good as i can shoot 22lr at the bulls eye targets. At my club I usually borrow a smith 945 pc when shooting 45, and I can shoot one hole groups with that one. Not every group, but at least 2-3 of them out of 10 (5rd).

I really like the 45. I can see how well I shoot from 25meter away with the 9 and 38 revo not so much. But I have also shot a lot of 38 wadcutters in a smith pistol (from the 60ies or so) and a really bad ass tuned model 10. And both of those also provide 1 hole groups.

I wouold like a gun that has the capability of giving me 1 hole groups at 25m.

But my buddies are starting to question my gun selection. I also want to compete in ipsc. And pretty much they say get a production gun, get a few thousand rounds and just shoot it. I know that they know better than me with anything regarding shooting.

So now I'm starting to second guess my own choices too.. heheh

Well but they have a point. 15 rounds are more fun than 8. so now i'm looking at production guns. and they both tell me just get a cz shadow. And I really hate it. Its ugly, And I have no idea what that particular gun does in production at all. Looks pretty "competition oriented" from the factory to me with the full length dustcover and all that.

Also I just don't like shooting what everybody else is shooting. So now I'm looking at sig since they make high quality guns. And it seems I can get parts and stuff easily for those here.

Going to try out my friends 40 standard edge first and a glock 19 just to see how those are.

I like the looks of the all stainless 226 and 229 models but I don't know if I will be competitive with those. Or at a disadvantage.

Or I could just get one of svi 1911 guns. I guess I have to roll a dice to decide

Brain overload.

[sn0wflake]

Sig is a good gun. I have one as my first gun (Traditional Match Elite) and it is incredibly accurate and reliable. I am picky about quality too, and the Sig has met all my expectations. If I were doing it all over I would absolutely start with the Sig again. I'm looking for a second gun and might get something different, but it is hard to find something that feels and shoots as nice, especially for the price (I've shot quite a few pistols before buying my first, and still continue to try out different guns). That being said, SVI should be sweet and if you can afford it, go for it? I thought $1000 US was a lot to spend on my first gun so that was my limit, and thus the Sig. I would take the Sig before the S&W, but the S&W looks and feels nice and might not be bad for a second gun. But I'm looking at STI and maybe another Sig before the S&W.

Sig has an external extractor as well so maybe it's worth getting a spare? I don't know if there are any other OEM parts that are necessary, most 1911 parts are interchangeable. I've heard (internal) extractors are one of the parts in 1911's that cause problems. Sig uses the same style external extractor on the 1911 that they use on their other guns so it has a successful history. I like that it's easy to see, easy to feel spring tension or if it's stuck, and easy to replace if necessary. I don't know the exact history about external extractors, but the designer of the 1911 used them before AND AFTER the 1911 design was finally released which says something, to me at least. Some manufacturers have had problems with external extractors, but some have problems with internal extractors and Sig has proven their externals work fine.

I bought a reloading press just for 9mm as shooting over 1000rds/month of factory ammo adds up. There are other benefits to reloading - a heavier 9mm bullet loaded to minor power factor shoots really smooth. And the press now allows me to reload other calibers so .40 isn't such a big price jump.

I have heard some .40 guns like longer ammo, but I would specifically research whatever gun you want to buy and see if that is the case. I don't know if that's for 2011s only or for 1911s also, but I have a hard time believing an SVI 1911 in .40 won't run without 'special' ammo.

Thanks for responding!

Well i have no worries about external extractors. Seems to me that they would be easier to mass produce and make them work well compared to internal ones.

Since the spring and the extractor are 2 separate parts. On internals the extractor are both the spring and extractor. And i have feeling that springyness will go out of tune quite fast. And i don't want to work on my gun ever! lol (yeah right).

All right. Reloading!

My friends tell me: for reloading 9mm I need a dillon 1050, since it works much smoother than a 650 and wont throw the powder out of the cases while operating it.

for 40 and 45 it doesn't matter they say. then the 650 is good enough. The 1050 also has 1 extra station that removes the staking of the primers commonly found on 9mm.

A 1050 is like 1800€ set up for a caliber ready to produce.

A 650 is about 8-900€ or so ready to go. but supposedly wont work well with 9mm, but will do 40 and 45.

*****************************************************

Regarding the svi's. I would seriously expect such an expensive gun to run with all commonly found store bought ammo with 100% reliability. In all calibers too!

If the cheap ass glocks made out of plastic can do it I would seriously expect and demand that a 4000€ hand made gun do it too. Even though I understand that precision comes at the cost of "reliability". But hey if you are charging 4000€ for a gun it better be fkin run store ammo all day long without problems imo. Am I wrong here??

Edited September 28, 2015 by sn0wflake

[sn0wflake]

I want a gun that I can win with in the following categories:

bulls eye 25 m

field competitions (these are fairly high demanding in accuracy)

and at least one ipsc division (and be competitive, from a materials standpoint at least).

[yellowfin]

For reloading there's absolutely no disadvantage with the 650 loading 9mm--people load thousands of rounds with them every day. What does matter is how solidly you mount the press and how rigid the work bench is which you work on. It might be possible that the 1050 is a little gentler in operation. Also I would say that powder being jiggled out of cases might have to do with what kind of powder is being used as some are bulkier than others which might fill the cases up higher thus making them more prone to being disturbed.

As for the difference in ammo with some guns being particular about it, there are a few different topics which may be referred to at any given point in discussion. First a difference in chambers between types of pistols: like rifles, pistols have a certain amount of freebore, that is, the distance between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling--Glocks for example are noted for being longer, and some CZ's being shorter. What that ends up meaning is that there is a preference to seat bullets further out for Glocks and shorter for CZ's to maximize accuracy, and also with the CZ to not have them be too long or the bullet will engage the rifling sooner and thus might not allow the slide to close all the way. Second, there is a matter of feed ramp geometry, which again can be pistol brand or model specific--not necessarily bad per se, but just like you as a person might wear a size Medium or Large shirt and presumably any labeled that size might work, ones to more specific measurement sizes will usually fit better. Certain bullet profiles and/or overall lengths with them simply might feed better given those differences--100% instead of 95-98%. Third is simply accuracy tuning to specific barrels: obviously you want the best accuracy you can get, and some barrels yield great results with many different loads while others seem to only want one or two very very specific combinations with which they will deliver prime accuracy while others disappointing. Some guys getting that extra 5-10% accuracy by having EXACTLY THAT ONE powder and bullet will act like the market has crashed and stores have absolutely nothing and they just won't shoot anything anymore because boo hoo hoo the stores around them don't have EXACTLY THAT ONE, and they will tell you that the gun only will take that as if it will blow up in your hands with something else.

What can you win with? CZ Tac Sport (outstanding gun and a steal of a deal compared to many others), pretty much any STI gun, Sigs if you're good with them, Tanfoglio, SVI, Wilson, Shuey (if you can wait that long), Ed Brown...

[LadyBlue]

Bsed on my experience I would go with an STI (I am a Texan so maybe I am a little biased). I am currently running a STI Trojan for competition. Mine is the best out of the box 1911 that I have ever owned. That list includes Colts, a Kimber, Ruger, a pair of Springfields, and a Remington. I do not thing you will go wrong with a STI in any model you can get your hands on.

[sn0wflake]

Thanks for your advice guys.

So a few days ago I was at the range and I was shooting the 945 again, spreading lead all over the target like a shotgun. Almost ready to give up.

Then a guy from my club shows up with a glock. One of the long slide models with a cutout in the slide. With an aftermarket trigger installed.

We were discussing glocks and accuracy and so. Then I got to try it. I was told: if I could get 3 out 5 in the black maybe glock was something for me.

To my surprise I shot like 10/10/9/9/7 with it And that was my best group by far that day. And i pretty much just banged them away.

This gun had fiber sights though and that might have contributed. It wasn't that bad. A bit "blocky" in the grip but I did manage to shoot it. Oh yeah the trigger was of the long travel type compared to a 1911. I still want an all metal gun though. The glock felt like a toy. I was so surprised it was that light. No problems with recoil though, just different. Those are some seriously ugly guns though

[Flash74]

Since you are in Europe check out SPS in Spain. They have single stacks and double stacks (both STI/SVI type and Para type). My only interaction with them is buying magazines, but they were great to deal with even with having credit card troubles since I am in the U.S.

[400driver]

lots of my friends have SPS pistols, I have been to see the store in Barcelona and wasnt impressed. I have SV and STI and the SPS just didnt seem to be anywhere near the quality of the STI.

Check out the SVI scepter if you like 1911 stlye, with a 6 inch barrel its amazing for precision. I also have a Shadow Viper which is half CZ and half german gunsmith . It is my favorite pistol for 25 m target work. Check it out

http://www.waffen-oschatz.de/CZ_75_SP01_Viper.html