Small Frame Tanfo, P-09, XD or Stock 1!

[cjdaniel78]

Looking for some advice. I currently shoot a XD 9mm Tactical in Production and it is a decent gun and I like the grip and can reload decently, but I have gotten to the point I can out shoot its accuracy potential – in slow fire. With my bone stock .45ACP Range Officer stock and my CZ P07 9mm with light trigger polishing only I can hold 1.5 inches at 20 yards standing, freehand (CZ shot DA mode for first round). The XD only holds about 3.5-4 inches with the same ammo; I have tired different loads to no avail.

I took the Ben Stoeger class last week and mentioned I was thinking of changing to DA/SA and he recommended doing it sooner and not later if I was going to do so I could develop the DA skill while also moving up. I am still unclassified in USPSA but Ben put me as a solid B Class. So now to my dilemma.

• Option 1 – order a Bar-Sto (or KKM) barrel for the XD, either drop in or hard fit. This is the cheapest solution as I have mags and spare parts for the XD but I still think I would ultimately move to DA/SA at some point.

• Option 2 – Sell the XD and buy a CZ P-09. I have a holster but would need mags (they're expensive), some CGW parts to make it gooder and Dawson sights. The XD would offset the actual gun, but it is still about 150 more than option 1.

• Option 3 – a local gun store has a older small frame Tanfo for sale, the one with fine forward cocking serrations. I can probably get it for $400 OTD with one mag. I would need holster, mags, and probably a LPA rear sight. The trigger is surprisingly smooth and shouldn’t take much to get really good. I love the weight, like the looks and love the grip, but I am concerned by the lack of parts, specifically an extended firing pin.

• Nuclear Option – Order a new Stock 1. The local gun shop can get me one for $860 + tax. Obviously this is most expensive option. Love this plan on paper, hate the idea of dropping $1100 to get setup with mags, holster and parts.

I have analysis paralysis. Help. Maybe I should sell it all and go head long into single stack major....

[kneelingatlas]

Get the small frame Witness, I think you'll be at least as happy as with the Stock I. As an aside, I would get a plain Jane SP01 before I bought a new Stock I.

[cjdaniel78]

Thank you KneelingAtlas. I was hoping you would respond!

What about the lack of extended firing pin that works with the FPB? I don't want to have a light strike machine because I reduced the hammer spring weight.

[vinceislander]

I'm partial to CZ and particularly P-07/P-09 platform. The P-07/P-09 platform has a lot of potential. If you can get over the SA trigger take up, the P-09 can be a great competition gun with upgrade parts from CGW and CZCustom. I share your concerns about the high price of mags for the P-07/P-09. In the grand scheme of things, it is a drop in the bucket. Here is how I see it: $500 gun, $300 mags, $300 upgrade parts equals competition ready.

Make Ready!

Edited May 21, 2015 by vinceislander

[kneelingatlas]

Thank you KneelingAtlas. I was hoping you would respond!

What about the lack of extended firing pin that works with the FPB? I don't want to have a light strike machine because I reduced the hammer spring weight.

If the small frame you're looking at has a plug in the bottom of the grip like a CZ (I suspect it will) then it utilizes the long hammer spring just like a CZ and will be capable of a lighter, smoother DA pull and more reliable ignition than the Stock I even without the extended firing pin

[blfuller]

Have you looked at the Grand Power K100?

[Magsz]

Realistically, the P09 only requires 100 dollars in mags.

The guns come with 3. Five total will get you rolling. Over time, you can invest in more if you are so inclined.

[cjdaniel78]

Three? My P-07 only came with two.

By the way, I have watched your P-09 videos multiple times. Are you still running them or have you switched to a Beretta?

I guess the consensus is no Stock 1 and move on from the XD.

[cjdaniel78]

Atlas - it does have the plug. It is black if I remember. I will likely be asking you some questions.

I think I will buy the old Witness now and get a P-09 later, because guns.

Edited May 21, 2015 by cjdaniel78

[bikerburgess]

I believe (I haven't double checked just going off my memory) the difference in length on larger Vs small frame firing pins is on the hits the primer end so if you had to have an extended one you could cut down a large frame one. Then you could trim it to be flush with the beach face thus being the ultimate extended pin.

[kneelingatlas]

I've trimmed a large frame pin for a small frame pistol, I've never tried it with a FPB though... Depending how old it is it may not have a block.

[cjdaniel78]

Snooze and lose. Went by the store and it was gone. But I did play with a P-09 and a CZ 75 Omega. The P-09 felt whippy during transitions, if that makes sense. Felt like my XD, why bother. I liked the feel of the CZ Omega except for the trigger guard. I really hate the trigger guards that is rounded on the bottom.

So... I want an all steel, small frame Witness. Couple of the on GB, but prices seem high.

There was an Armalite AR-24, but I really prefer front cocking serrations.

Atlas- Ever used the LPA adustable rear sights?

http://www.lpasights.com/en/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=144&category_id=43&manufacturer_id=25&vmcchk=1

[Magsz]

Three? My P-07 only came with two.

By the way, I have watched your P-09 videos multiple times. Are you still running them or have you switched to a Beretta?

I guess the consensus is no Stock 1 and move on from the XD.

I think mine came with three...truth be told, i dont remember.

Still, the P09 has the lowest cost of entry. I bought all of mine for between 430 and 440.

The P09 is still my chosen platform until my Grand Power Xcal proves itself.

[kneelingatlas]

I'm pretty sure I've owned that model of LPA for the standard sight cut and it sits really high off the slide. I prefer fixed sights for competition.

[cjdaniel78]

Atlas - Do you use the factory rear or a replacement, maybe something like Hennings, except for the older style cut?.

[kneelingatlas]

I have 6 or 7 Production guns so I've done about everything. The CZ dovetail is slightly larger than the standard Tanfo cut so any CZ sight can be filed to fit. I've also modified the Henning Match sight for the standard dovetail.

[cjdaniel78]

Perfect! Now to find one. Then I'll whip you with spring questions

[kneelingatlas]

You'd have to cut the front dovetail for a FO sight, but this beater is cheap: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=484571286

Same thing with this one in better shape: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=484952868

[bikerburgess]

Snooze and lose. Went by the store and it was gone. But I did play with a P-09 and a CZ 75 Omega. The P-09 felt whippy during transitions, if that makes sense. Felt like my XD, why bother. I liked the feel of the CZ Omega except for the trigger guard. I really hate the trigger guards that is rounded on the bottom.

So... I want an all steel, small frame Witness. Couple of the on GB, but prices seem high.

There was an Armalite AR-24, but I really prefer front cocking serrations.

Atlas- Ever used the LPA adustable rear sights?

http://www.lpasights.com/en/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=144&category_id=43&manufacturer_id=25&vmcchk=1

Why limit to Small frame witnesses?

The large frame guns aren't actually significantly larger just the magazines are different.

[cjdaniel78]

The original reason in that post was trigger spring/CZ trigger job. I actually bought the AR-24 today. It is really well made. It is the cheaper model without checkering, but it mimics large frame Tanfoglio in every way but the mags, which are small frame Tanfoglio. Basically it seems, with my limited and developing knowledge, to be a post-2005 small frame Tanfoglio with different shaped slide. It was $299 so worst case scenerio it becomes a learning platform without risking destroying some that cost 2 or 3 times more.

I need to learn the picture posting bit...

[cjdaniel78]

Pics.

The firing pin looks like the Henning for a large frame, but I have never seen a small frame Tanfo pin, so that means nothing.

[cjdaniel78]

In other news I got an email from Rob Leatham about my XD accuracy. It was extremely detailed and frankly awesome he took the time to send it. I'll continue to shoot the XD and make the AR-24 a summer side project to transfer over too later in the year or next season.

[cjdaniel78]

AR-24 update: (as if anyone cares)

I only put 40 rounds through it before the sky opened up and it started pouring. I was on my lunch break I didn't want to get soaked so I stopped early.

I did a real simple 10 round transition drill comparison with the XD and I was within 1.25 seconds of the XD, which is the gun I used at Ben Stoeger's Fundamentals Class 2 weeks ago, so I am really "current" with it. I suspect most of the time difference was inexperience with a DA pull (over 12 pounds!) and some of it was the fact the white dot fell out of the front sight 5 rounds in, so it was all black sights vs familiar fiber on the XD.

With a little work, better trigger and better sights I should easily match the performance of the XD.

The good:

• Forged frame, forged slide and forged barrel
• Amazing accuracy!
• Dovetail sights (the rear is small Witness, the front is slightly smaller than on my Springfield Range Officer so I can file fit one)
• Uses Witness parts for the trigger and recoil spring.
• Recoil was similar to my tweaked and lighter sprung XD. The AR-24 has a ridiculous recoil spring in it so some spring tweaking should make it a real flat shooter.

The bad:

• The trigger sucks, over 12 lbs DA and 6-7 SA. But that will be fixed.
• The stock grips are supposed to be ergonomic and maybe they are for a gorilla. Actually they feel good just holding the gun and might be OK for one handed bullseye shooting, but the palm swell is huge and makes for crap grip with my hands.
• The stock grips are also slick. It was misting lightly and they quickly became slicker than ice with once they had a single drop of water on them.
• There mag opening is completely squared off at the bottom, so some internal flaring will be in order.

Unknown:

• The mag release was slow to access, but I suspect it might have more to do with the large palm swell than the length of the actual release.
• What rear sight to use.

I have plans for this gun and will try to track the improvements here.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Wish i could have chimed in before, I picked up a grand power P1 ( little short for USPSA) the guns are continuing to impress me since I bought the K100 X- Trim for competition. ( and skate taped the heck out of it played with the trigger some) I decided to pick up something else for CCW.

Some tips on the AR24. Get some recoil springs ( Wolf (gunsprings.com) sells a recoil calibration pack) You will probably end up settling at 10 or 11 pounds

Stock grips are far too fat ... get something you can add some skate tape to, this will fix lots of problems. I actually took mine to a belt sander and flattened them untl they felt good, then taped it up. ( that's cheaper for sure)

Before you do any flaring, make sure it won't toss you out of production class. I am no expert on this but general thoughts are don't touch anything that can be seen.

[cjdaniel78]

Thanks Steve. I actually sold the AR24. A co-worker loved it and made me a cash offer over what I bought it for. I've since bought a P-09. Finished the trigger tonight. Awaiting sights later this week.