SDStack Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Again, I do not shoot in tournaments. Just for fun but I want to become the best I can at that. With that said for the tenth time on this forum. I want to get a chronograph and BENOS is nice enough to help me out but I am not sure now if it will help me or not without a rest. Here's what I did... I loaded up 200 rounds. 20 rounds each with different powders, weights, and bullets using the same primers. I was going to shot 2, 5-round groups at a target to find out which load shot best in the 1911. I did not have a chronograph. I went strictly on group size. I was anchored on a table and rest 15 yards away, but nothing was consistent. The shots were all over the place. Even the ones that shot good groups could not be repeated. Maybe it was me, but it looked like everything was lined up perfectly when the trigger was squeezed. At 15 yards, I thought I should have more consistency. My intention was to find the load that grouped the best and the buy a chronograph to see it the best loads were consistent in velocity but they were all over the place. Even if I knew the velocity, I couldn't tell you what velocity shot the best. I was told earlier that you needed to be a master to shoot accurate from a table to check grouping. Is there a cheaper way of doing this without buying a Ransom Rest? HELP! I really do want the Chrono. I love gadgets. I will probably still buy the PACT with the timer built in. At least I can get some use out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Maybe it was me, but it looked like everything was lined up perfectly when the trigger was squeezed. That accuracy stuff...pretty tricky. When the front sight lifts in recoil...which direction does it go? (You should see the front sight lift of the notch.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 Sorry, but I always did the chrono and the accuracy tests separately. I chrono to findout the speed and the atandard deviation and then I shot the load with the smallest standard deviation for accuracy. Usually that one will give you the best accuracy. If it does then you work toward finding the softest load and then the cleanest shooting load. Normally, all of those factors don't come with one load. Everything is a compromise, how dirty can you stand it, if it is very soft shooting and still makes the minimum on the chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 In all my years of testing, I saw little if any correlation between accuracy and chrono readings. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 26, 2002 Share Posted November 26, 2002 I am completely with Benos on this one. I have a chrono and use it a lot. Only to be sure I am sithin the Power Factor with pistols, but it is mandatory to determine fps with rifles to calculate correct drop over distance, past 300 yds. All the data in the back of the loading books is useless if you don't know for certain exactly how fast your load is going. Also be certain to correct instrumental to actual when collecting your data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDStack Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 Ok guys. So I need to find out what standard deviation is and how to calculate it. Shoot some loads and the one with the lowest SD will more than likely be the most accurate? That sounds like a deal to me. Saves $350.00 plus inserts for a rest and a whole lot of time. I was under the impression (I read it somewhere on the web) that each gun would do better at a certain velocities. Each gun has two or three nodes of velicities that do better than others. You can choose which node you want whether you are just plinking (use the slower node to be easier on the gun) or hunting (use the fastest load for more knockdown power) Once I found that velocity, then I could easily repeat the accuracy when changing any one of the powder, bullet, primer, case, etc. Ex: If my 1911 shot best at 850 with 230gr LRN and 5.5gr of W231 and I wanted to use Tightgroup or maybe even change to a 200gr LSWC then I could work up a load until it reached 850. I wish I could remember where I read it. If I find it I will post the article. I read WAY too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 You are making it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than it has to be. If you want to shoot two bullet weights in your 45, say 230 and 200 grain, there are 6 or more load combo's you can try till you find one that gives good accuracy, is soft shooting, clean and easy to load. FORGET this node of velocity stuff and if you get a load for 200 gr SWC and one for 230 ball that fits what you need, forget about the rest and move on. If you don't do as I suggest, you will end up with 50 zip lock bags with 10 rounds in each without knowing what they are, and the set up time on your machine is waaaay to long. What is the point of the node of velocity stuff anyway? What if you go to the range with three different load of velocity loads worked up for your 45, and you want to shoot two shots at 15 yards, two shots at some steel at 25 yards and two shots at paper at 50 yards. If you forget or miss one alone the way, you are blown up!!!! Just too complex. My .02 worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDStack Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 I told you I read too much. THe link I told you about earlier where I read about the nodes is http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/loaddev.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 SDStack, TL is right on. It really isn't that hard. Tell the folks here what components you have on hand and they will likley be able to give you a good starting point with tried and proven loads. You may find that you have a flinch that is cause the problems though (very common and very natural, takes a bit of training to get past) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDStack Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 I have on hand: W 231 Accurate #5 Tightgroup Winchester primers 200gr LSWC 230gr LRN 230gr RN Plated (Rainier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDStack Posted November 27, 2002 Author Share Posted November 27, 2002 I've been studying. Tell me if I have got it figured out. I now have an understanding of SD as it pertains to bullet weights and velocities. Let's assume I have a chronograph because I am going to order one from benos this week. If I wanted to get really technical, I could weigh a group of bullets and calculate the SD for the group and then weigh others to pick out the ones that were within +/-1 SD from the group. With or without the first step, I would pick a powder or two and weigh out 10 or so rounds using 5 or so charge weights. I would then chrono these 5 groups of ten and calculate my SD for each group. The lowest SD would conceivably be my most accurate load. Is that right? By doing this, I should have the most accurate load and could assume that they would group the best if I were to put them through the "Ransom Rest Test." I do not want to have to RR test them due to the added expense. How's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 nope, nope, nope...all wrong (said with a smile). If somebody here doesn't post a load with the 200g LSWC and 231 within a day...I'll point you in the right direction (I'll look it up for ya). Take the tried and true load (this being a super common load) and double check it against your realoding manuals to ensure its falls within the normal safety range. Then load up. If the load doesn't group...find a local one-hole shooter. Have that person try your load and see if they will let you shoot their gun and load. Always assume the problem lies within you, the shooter. Trust you equipment. I am one to study things too. But this is an easy one. Load up. Find somebody that is real good and shoots a similar gun. Compare yourself to that person. If your ammo has problems, it will have problems with the other shooter too. Same with the gun. also, look for some tried and true 231 recipes over in the reloading section on the 1911forum.com (normally i would never suggest getting somebody's load recipe off the interent...but, a 231 load will be ancient) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread...p;highlight=231 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 200 gr LSWC in a 5" 1911 is between 5.6 and 5.8 to make a PF of 170 with Fed 150 primers using WW 231 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 I read the paper at the site you show and it may or may not be obvious to you that this guy is talking about loading rifles more than pistols. The other OBVIOUS thing is that he is trying to get you to buy the chrono he is selling. some of the things he says are true. Just like I told you, usually the load with the smallest Standard Deviation will be accurate but you can always fine tune any load. Usually you do it by altering your powder up of down .1 grains till it does what you need done. The other stuff he talks about is done by some bench rest shooters. Like uniforming primer pockets and deburring the inside of the flash hole, and that works. However, if you shoot like some of us here in the forum shoot, how long would it take you to do just those two steps on 5K pieces of brass a month, You would never get to the range for the time spent working your brass. The bullet seater top punch in any quality die set will have the correct shape to seat your bullets accurately. If you need to find out, ask the salesman to unscrew it and look at the shape, the defacto standard is set for round nose bullets but others are avaliable like for SWC in pistol bullets. He does tell you some good things. It is good to gauge your loaded rounds, especially after several loadings. It is good to pay attention to the OAL of your load to be certain it is within specs based on the loading manual you are using. I could go on and on but will cut this short. The most important thing I would say to you is to DELETE that info and forget you read it. The guy who wrote it is caught up in the engineering mode and when you ask him what time it is; he tells you how to build a watch. Get a good reloading manual, follow the directions, work up to max loads carefully, have a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 27, 2002 Share Posted November 27, 2002 I was going to keep my mouth shut, but here goes. I have been doping loads for 30 years and I have shot so many rounds through pistols in a Ransom Rest, or through rifles from a bench, that I could retire if I had what the ammo cost. Doping loads is a hobby of mine. I don't understand why you guys don't listen to Brian. He is right, the correlation (in handguns) between accuracy and standard deviation is almost non-existent (to a point). In the case of rifles, I have done just about every bench rest reloading trick in the book and it all comes down to the three basics, barrel, bedding, and bullet. Standard deviation in velocity may or may not make any measurable difference (again within reason). As for trusting your equipment, well yes and no. I trust what is proven. I never assume an unproven firearm or load will be accurate. I have personally owned several pistols, revolvers, and rifles that did not shoot as well as I do. That's why I use a Ransom Rest, it takes the human factor out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 SDStack, You say that you don't shoot competition so it appears that you are after accuracy without the consideration of Power Factor. Usually the most accurate loads are at midrange velocities. For the 45, 200gr LSWC at around 800fps is a good starting point. That's 5 grains of 231 with a H&G#68 through my 45. A friend of mine did the bullet weighing exercise that you describe and found that the "discards" shot the most accurate groups with a machine rest. A Rest is the only way to absolutely determine the most accurate load as the inconsistency between groups that you describe would undoubtedly be attributable to operator error. But sandbagging does have a beneficial side benefit. By concentrating on sight alignment and trigger control for load testing, you will improve your shooting skills dramatically. The SD factor appears convincing in theory and has many adherants, but I personally remain unconvinced. I would be very interested to hear Brian's procedure for deducing accurate loads for pistols. (Edited by George D at 10:47 am on Nov. 28, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDStack Posted November 28, 2002 Author Share Posted November 28, 2002 Quote: from George D on 5:44 pm on Nov. 27, 2002 SDStack, I would be very interested to hear Brian's procedure for deducing accurate loads for pistols. (Edited by George D at 10:47 am on Nov. 28, 2002) So would I! I am so confused now I don't know what to do. Do I need a chrono or not for my purposes? If so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 SDStack, Yeah, I know the feeling. You said you shoot for fun so take things slowly and enjoy yourself. A chrono isn't an enormous outlay so if you can afford one, buy it. You obviously have a delving mind and a chrono will provide a great deal of information. The outlay for a Ransom Rest is higher and obtaining a very solid mounting platform can prove a challenge, but once again, if you can justify it a RR will give the best results in load accuracy testing. BUT, it won't improve your shooting skills as will sandbagging. And the absolute most accurate load is really only absolutely important to shooters with Master Grade skills. So relax, do your testing and experience will show your way. Work on your skills so that you actually NEED the ultimately accurate load. Try sandbagging at 50 yards with different loads and set a goal of shooting better groups each session. Above all, enjoy. (Edited by George D at 11:37 am on Nov. 28, 2002) (Edited by George D at 11:41 am on Nov. 28, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 How about telling us about the groups you have been getting...and at what distances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 28, 2002 Share Posted November 28, 2002 No, you do not need a chrono to develop loads. They are just fun to see what your load is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Interesting thread, and sorry I'm so late getting to it. I don't know a whole lot about reloading, but the kinds of things you're talking about really do sound more like what benchrest rifle shooters do. IPSC shooting really isn't about accuracy, in that it's not hard to find a pistol/ammo combination that will shoot a group that will fit in the A zone at 50 yards (shooting 2 shots into that zone quickly, well...) I spent a summer on the Marine Corps Rifle team, and learned quite a bit from the Gunny who ran our reloading shop. One of the experiments he performed was to load a lot of ammo for Palma rifles (.308 loads for single shot bolt guns, fired at 800, 900, and 1000 yards), and paint the base of some of the rounds blue, and others red. When he handed the blue rounds to the shooter, he said "here's yer rounds" with a kinda sad looking face, and no enthusiasm. The red rounds were handed out with a big smile, a wink, and a thumbs-up. He claims to have seen better scores shot with the red rounds than the blue rounds. He was a really smart guy, and a really great shot, and I believe him. Moral of the story: Don't work too much on equipment, work on yourself! That said, I bought a book called the "Precision Shooting Reloading Guide" (I think the title is correct), which is a collection of articles from "Precision Shooting" magazine. Written by some guys who reload and shoot well in their rifle disciplines, and who performed some quantitative experiments, and wrote their results about what matters and what doesn't seem to. Interesting reading if you're into the engineering and mechanical aspects of shooting. Finally, I highly encourage you to go compete. NOTHING else will improve your shooting as greatly as the pressure and desire to perform in competition! Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now