Props touching the shooting area not part of the shooting area?

[bthoefer]

At the Alabama Sectional this past weekend stage 6 consisted of 3 shooting areas connected by 2 planks. The planks were part of the shooting area. The stage breifing stated that the supports for the planks were not part of the shooting area.

The issue with the stage was that the supports on the ends of the planks contacted the fault lines for the shooting areas. The end supports on the first plank touched the fault lines forming the first shooting box on one end and the fault lines forming the second shooting box on the other. The supports for the second plank touched the fault line of the second box and the final support was the fault line for the third shooting box.

When the RM was called over, he installed a fault line in the third shooting box so that the support was no longer the fault line for the last box. This fault line was touching the support also.

The RM stated that if you were touching the support while standing on a fault line it would be a per shot penalty.

It didn't affect the stage that much so I didn't push the issue any more.

I don't believe this was correct. Since the supports were touching the fault lines the shooter should be able to touch them without penalty. This is the same as any other prop such as a wall or vision barrier. If the prop touches the fault lines for the shooting area then the shooter is OK to touch it.

I emailed NROI already and will post the response here when I get it.

I don't intend this post to attack the RM and match staff, it was an excellent match. I just don't think this call was correct and wanted an answer.

[Sarge]

If it was as you describe, you are correct.

[Bkreutz]

Agreed, we had a stage today with a steel fault line that had a 2" gap to the shooting box. The reason was to make touching both to be a procedural because had they been touching they would not have.

[JAFO]

Agreed, we had a stage today with a steel fault line that had a 2" gap to the shooting box. The reason was to make touching both to be a procedural because had they been touching they would not have.

I'm not sure I understand this. If you have a fault line that delineates part of a shooting area, and a shooting box 2" away that is another shooting area, how can it be a procedural to be touching both while engaging targets? Even if there was 2 feet between them, if the shooter has one foot on a fault line and the other on a shooting box without touching the ground outside of either shooting area, I don't see a procedural. The exception would be if the stage invoked the 1.1.5.1 Level I exemption to dictate what targets could be taken from certain positions.

[Sarge]

Agreed, we had a stage today with a steel fault line that had a 2" gap to the shooting box. The reason was to make touching both to be a procedural because had they been touching they would not have.

I'm not sure I understand this. If you have a fault line that delineates part of a shooting area, and a shooting box 2" away that is another shooting area, how can it be a procedural to be touching both while engaging targets? Even if there was 2 feet between them, if the shooter has one foot on a fault line and the other on a shooting box without touching the ground outside of either shooting area, I don't see a procedural. The exception would be if the stage invoked the 1.1.5.1 Level I exemption to dictate what targets could be taken from certain positions.

Correct. There was a stage at the MI sectional last year with a bridge and a separate shooting area that was too close. Long legs could straddle the no mans land in between to stabilize the bridge. If you are in another shooing area"box" then you are not faulting.

This rule really applies easier to walls and such that are outside the shooting area. A different level II match last year had a wall support touching the fault lines yet we were told we could not touch the wall without penalty. It really didn't come into play but that was kind of bogus.

[kevin c]

What would you all say to a variation on a theme:

The downrange portion of a shooting area consists of an anchored wall with multiple grips on its uprange face. The fault lines defining the sides of the shooting area extend uprange frome either side of this wall, each about 18 inches in from each side of the wall, so that engaging the down range targets meant a good lean around either side. The ends of the side fault lines butted up against the wall.

The WSB stated that the uprange face, the grips and the tops and edges of the wall were part of the shooting area, but not the anchoring braces behind the wall (else the very tall could get a foot down on the structure behind for a solid shooting position).

This was at a level II match (sectional), where the stages and WSB's were vetted and the actual set up reviewed iin person by NROI.

[Bkreutz]

I'm not sure I understand this. If you have a fault line that delineates part of a shooting area, and a shooting box 2" away that is another shooting area, how can it be a procedural to be touching both while engaging targets? Even if there was 2 feet between them, if the shooter has one foot on a fault line and the other on a shooting box without touching the ground outside of either shooting area, I don't see a procedural. The exception would be if the stage invoked the 1.1.5.1 Level I exemption to dictate what targets could be taken from certain positions.

Maybe I didn't describe it well enough. There was a shooting box that was 2" away from a steel fault line DQ (not another box). The shooter stood on the board delineating the shooting box and the board that was the steel fault line (bridged them with his feet not touching the ground). The ruling was that the steel fault line was not part of the shooting box because it wasn't touching. I agree that if there were two shooting boxes that were that close, they could have been bridged (unless the WSB specifically prohibited this) And this would have been poor design IMO. . If the steel fault line (or any other prop) touches the boundary markers of the shooting area it's considered part of the shooting area. We had one today where a stand for a wall was touching the boundary and it was used to reach around the wall (as long as your foot doesn't touch the ground, just like boundary line markers. Some shooters questioned this interpretation but the MD agreed.

[bikerburgess]

I'm not sure I understand this. If you have a fault line that delineates part of a shooting area, and a shooting box 2" away that is another shooting area, how can it be a procedural to be touching both while engaging targets? Even if there was 2 feet between them, if the shooter has one foot on a fault line and the other on a shooting box without touching the ground outside of either shooting area, I don't see a procedural. The exception would be if the stage invoked the 1.1.5.1 Level I exemption to dictate what targets could be taken from certain positions.

Maybe I didn't describe it well enough. There was a shooting box that was 2" away from a steel fault line DQ (not another box). The shooter stood on the board delineating the shooting box and the board that was the steel fault line (bridged them with his feet not touching the ground). The ruling was that the steel fault line was not part of the shooting box because it wasn't touching. I agree that if there were two shooting boxes that were that close, they could have been bridged (unless the WSB specifically prohibited this) And this would have been poor design IMO. . If the steel fault line (or any other prop) touches the boundary markers of the shooting area it's considered part of the shooting area. We had one today where a stand for a wall was touching the boundary and it was used to reach around the wall (as long as your foot doesn't touch the ground, just like boundary line markers. Some shooters questioned this interpretation but the MD agreed.

that's messed up to begin with, A fault line is not supposed to be that close to the minimum distance to steel.

"2.1.3 Minimum Distances – Whenever metal targets or metal hard cover are used in a course of fire, precautions must be taken so that competitors and Match Officials maintain a minimum distance of 23 feet from them while they are being shot. Where possible, this should be done with physical barriers. If Fault Lines are used to limit the approach to metal targets, they must be placed at least 26 feet from the targets so that the competitor may inadvertently fault the line and still be outside the 23 feet minimum distance (see Rule 10.5.17). Care should also be taken in respect of metal props in the line of fire..