3 Gun Nation, Hammer Down Start with DA gun ok?

[Jukez]

Think the title says it all.. Using a CZ Shadow with thin safeties can be a pain to manipulate.. So on the start, can you start hammer down, since this is considered a safe condition?

[alma]

Yes

[Jukez]

Yes

Simple yet effective answer

[bc361]

Think the title says it all.. Using a CZ Shadow with thin safeties can be a pain to manipulate.. So on the start, can you start hammer down, since this is considered a safe condition?

You havent seen me or some of the other CZ shooters do this?

[Jukez]

I have but no one knows if it's actually allowed. When I ask everyone is like "I dunno, but I don't see why not" trying to find the rule. Since it's "limited" rules.. Naturally thought it had to be cocked and locked

[alma]

Even in USPSA Limited or IDPA first shot double action is an acceptable alternative.

I have a friend who shot his CZ double action the first shot because it is what he was used to. Using a CZ Shadow in 3 gun I would prefer to run it in single action but I ride my thumb on top of the safety so taking it off is no big deal for me. My friend uses the smaller safeties and doesn't really practice safety manipulation so that is why he leans towards DA for the first shot.

[sundevil827]

This seems fairly cut and dried, but I've asked a few people and honestly heard both, that I need to start cocked and locked, and that I can manually drop the hammer. If it's manually dropped do I still need the safety engaged? I'm looking at my first 3-Gun match next month, and I honestly never thought about it while I was walking with a few squads watching other matches. I shoot a CZ Shadow in Production, with the small thin safety as well, and would really prefer to manually drop the hammer and start with no safety just because that's what I'm used to doing now.

I'm not looking to get into an argument with an RO, just looking to make sure I'm on the same page with them.

[alma]

Do you know which 3 Gun rule see you are following? I will look it up for you if you know.

I am confident that you can start double action without the safety engaged. The CZ does not normally allow the safety to function when the hammer is down in DA mode. Some DOD guys think that isn't right since their policy is the safety must be on even in DA mode but that isn't required and doesn't work on CZs.

Also, for Limited division in USPSA you can start "selective action" guns either with the hammer back and safety engaged or in DA mode. It your choice.

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

[Vlad]

Most everyone would consider starting in DA when you can start SA a disadvantage (whether it is true or not) or at least not an advantage so why would anyone care if you choose to start that way?

[sundevil827]

Do you know which 3 Gun rule see you are following? I will look it up for you if you know.

I am confident that you can start double action without the safety engaged. The CZ does not normally allow the safety to function when the hammer is down in DA mode. Some DOD guys think that isn't right since their policy is the safety must be on even in DA mode but that isn't required and doesn't work on CZs.

Also, for Limited division in USPSA you can start "selective action" guns either with the hammer back and safety engaged or in DA mode. It your choice.

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 Single action chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 Double action chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.

8.1.2.3 Selective action chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

As I understand it, 3-Gun Nation rules (and that's honestly an assumption on my part, but since they submit classifier's to 3GN....)

I know the 75 is not supposed to allow me to put the safety on while it's in DA, but mine actually does. A few of us ordered last December from Automatic Accuracy, and two of the four Shadows that showed up actually were able to engage the safety while in DA. One of 'em was mine, and the other person who had the issue sent his back to Mink along with me. Matt could not find a solution, my choice was to throw a heavier spring in there. That, combined with the thin/small safety is a big reason I'd rather start in DA without a safety. For the time being, I realize it means I'm still going drop the mag, and rack out the last round when putting the gun down, but just getting into the sport, that's the least of my worries. If I get hooked then I'll make a choice with my handgun. I'd like to stay with the same pistol for both 3-Gun and Production in USPSA, but that's a choice down the road....

I was aware of the USPSA Limited rules, but since I don't shoot it, gotta admit, was not thinking of them at all! Thank you!

Edited November 24, 2014 by sundevil827

[alma]

Bad news.

It turns out 3GN rules are stupid and have no concept of selective action.

As written you would need to have your safety engaged regardless of hammer position. I would talk to the MD at the match you want to attend and ask for an exception.

1.5.3 Loaded with Safety Engaged

1.5.3.1 Pistols with a manual safety must have them fully engaged to satisfy the loaded on safe rule, regardless of passive safeties.

1.5.3.2 Pistols without a manual safety must have passive safeties in operational condition; this will satisfy the safety engaged requirement. Passive safety is a safety that engages automatically and disables the firearm from discharging while the firearm is not being handled. Safe Action striker safeties or passive trigger safeties fall under this ruling. Operational

means: The safety operates correctly as intended. It must not be altered or disabled in a way that while not being handled, the safety features can no longer prevent the firearm from discharging.

[alma]

P.S. You really want to have an operational safety to flip on for pistol dumps anyway.

[sundevil827]

Thanks, I was afraid of that. No idea why I did not do my homework ahead of time and just look up the rulebook: http://3gunnation.com/pro_series/rules_awards

I'm not usually that lazy, but I thought I looked for it under the club series and did not go over to pro series....I'll go with that, and just say thank you!

The safety definitely works, (even if it can go on when in DA) it's just a pain in the ass with heavier spring, and being small. I'll deal with mag drop and racking the round to clear it for a match or two before I decide which route I'm going to go.