Under the new rules WHICH would be...

[cqbshooter]

Hello ,

Under the new rules WHICH would be the best full size 9mm and .40 in H&K and GLOCK that would keep me in the SSP class.

Any opinions would be very helpful.....

CQBshooter

Don Curtis

[Glock2234]

Glock 34 or 35

If the slides are too long for you (they do fit in the box) Glock 17 or 22

[Clay1]

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA (US version of IPSC-you already knew that). At the IDPA nationals they take an equipment survey. My book is at work, but I don't think that ANYONE shot an HK at nationals in 2004. They are quality defensive handguns, but I have heard that their triggers and difficult to get where competition shooter want them to be. On the other hand Glocks were almost double everything else in the field. The Glock 34 was the dominant gun and nothing else even came close. I bought two G34s one for me and one for my wife and they are great, have lots of aftermarket options and have the features that competitors want. If you would ever shoot a 1911 the G34 isn't any larger and it is much lighter in weight. Would recomend the G34 without any hesitations.

[GRD]

I don't have a G34, but I have an HK USP40 and have shot both IDPA and USPSA with it. Don't bother. If you start it hammer-forward (ala Sig) you're in SSP and the first DA trigger pull is no fun. If you start it hammer-back (ala 1911) you're in ESP and competing with guns with real single-action triggers. Also not fun. I did OK with it, and if it's all you have I'd go ahead and shoot for sure before you stayed home (hell, I'd shoot anything before I stayed home ), but if you have the choice, I'd go with the G34.

- Gabe

[JayC]

OK guys, I'll be the odd ball here . While I believe the Glock is a good handgun, I would pick the HK over it. I shoot an HK in IDPA and in USPSA. I shot a Tactical for 3 years and then switched to the fullsze 9mm 2 years ago. Too me the shooter makes more of a difference than the gun. I will agree that not many are seen at major matches.

When mine was stock I classified Master in SSP and just missed Master in ESP with it. I used the Tac. to get Master in CDP. In USPSA production I am an A class.

There are a couple of changes you can make to them that make a world of a difference. I took the Tactical trigger parts out and installed them in my 9mm. I also ordered a set of Tactical sights from LPI and installed them. The best thing you can do is contact Bruce Gray and talk to him about having a trigger job done.

Hope this helps

Jay

[Duane Thomas]

The Glock has a very low bore axis that helps cut down on muzzle flip and perceived recoil. The HK USP by contrast has an extremely high bore axis that makes firing it fast feel like trying to hold onto a bouncing pogo stick.

[JayC]

I'll agree with Duane that the bore axis is higher on the HK, but with HK's buffer system felt recoil isn't an issue. Not to mention there is very little felt recoil with a 9mm or .40 anyway.

Another item I like on the HK's are the mag release. With their system you can release the mags with just about any finger. It also doesn't require you to change your grip and some people have to do that while trying to reach the small Glock mag release.

Hk's are very fast to reload compared to the Glock. HK's have a good size mag well opening and are tapered slightly. The Glock is small and tight. Another issue I have seen with the Glocks are sticking mags that won't fully eject. I know some people treat them, but I don't think I want a slick mag body to be grabbing during a reload. I haven't seen that problem with the HK's. Most mags are metal but some are plastic, and even those eject well.

Hands down accuracy I think goes to the HK. I have shot many Glock's and HK's and have found that the HK is more accurate out of the box.

I will also say that the DA trigger pull on the HK's are horrible. This is an area where the Glock has an advantage. This can be corrected though with some polshing and a 10# mainspring. Also dry fire and live fire practice.

As far as reliability goes, I think they are the same. I have seen both Glocks and HK's malfunction due to ammo concerns (always reloads). I have seen Glock range guns break parts (springs). I have seen HK's wear parts (buffer assembly). There are also guns from both companies that just keep going and going.

OK, I've taken up enough of your time

Catch ya guys later.

Jay

[GRD]

I agree with Jay on the merits of the USP. It's super-reliable. most reliable gun I've ever owned. And the .40 is very soft-shooting, especially for a .40

I also like the mag release. You have to get used to it, but once you do it's very fast.

It is a little squirrly from the heigt, but no moreso than a Sig, IMO.

- Gabe

[Bones]

Why not review the equipment usage data from recent large matches (like the last Nat'ls or WinterChampionships) and see what conclusion others have arrived at given the same question and data set?

[waktasz]

I've only handled 2 HKs (USP C .40 and USP .45) but I have no idea why anyone likes them. The trigger is bad in both modes and the mag catch is not what most people are used to (I'm not going to say it's bad, even though I hate it)

[smokshwn]

Although there is an opinion concerning these two guns there is a definite reason why you don't see many HK's on the nationals eq. data sheets.

1) Less than great parts/service availability whereas Glock parts fall from the sky

2) Bore axis, I don't care how little a gun recoils the higher the bore the more time you spend driving the gun.

3) Less than great accessory availability whereas again Glock accessories are often as close as 7-11. Not too mention initial cost of gun and mags.

4) HORRIBLE TRIGGERS not that Glocks are exactly an icon of glass rod smooth but they are easier to produce a decent trigger with.

5) What variant do I have? is it a 1 or a 7? is my safety a decocker? is it DAO? dammit where did that handy chart go? (I hate SOing the HK's for this reason, as an observer it is impossible to tell which variant the shooter is using)

6) That oh so fast mag release when used with the strong hand trigger finger occasionally becomes the oh so frightful, oops that was my trigger button!!!!!

Anyway I know the HK is a quality gun I just think there are several objective reasons it doesn't work for most people.

BTW the above opinion and .99c will get you busted for shoplifting at All a Dollar.

Craig

[JayC]

I'll agree, the customer service is horrible. Parts are impossible to get at times. There is no aftermarket for them.

If you check the stats of major matches in USPSA and IDPA you will not see many of them. The above issues are the main reasons along with the trigger. Another big issue is the cost of an HK too. The big thing that killed HK in the competitive arena was when they discontinued the sponsorships. They had an IDPA team (4 guys) for 2 years in MO that went to the IDPA nats and finished well, a couple even won their classes. There was also a West Coast USPSA team and a huge IPSC team in Europe.

I'll disagree with the mag release issue. I have never seen that happen. I won't say that it can't happen. Since the mag release is pushed down and not back and also the fact that it is behind the trigger makes it hard to actuate the trigger while trying to release a mag.

More so than anything, the shooter makes the biggest difference. You can take a fully tricked out race gun, a nice limited gun, or a top of the line production gun and give it to an average shooter and that's all it will be, an average gun. You can't expect miracles. On the other hand I'd be willing to bet if you gave a stock gun to one of the top shooters, they would shoot circles around most people.

Using a box stock HK I classified Master in CDP and SSP. I just missed Master in ESP. In USPSA I classified as an A shooter.

It all boils down to what you like and what fits you well. I will agree that the finer things on guns will make a difference, but not until your skill level will allow it.

Oh well. Catch ya guys later.

Jay