1.1.5 Freestyle Question

[Southpaw]

At a match today there was a stage where you had to take a tool box from one side of the pit to the other and drop it in a barrel before the last shot is fired. Fairly common type of thing to do with a prop, but what struck me as strange is the wording in the WSB. I don't recall the exact wording, but it was something like "once you touch the tool box you must keep it in one hand until dropped in the barrel." Is this legal or a violation of 1.1.5 by imepeding on my ability to come up with my own solution to the challenges of the stage and shoot it freestyle?

The wording was in there because the stage designer wanted to get everyone to do some one handed shooting. Normally when we have a prop like this it just says put it x before the last shot. So I can carry it, throw it towards x and then pick it up and drop it in after doing some shooting, stick it between my legs while shooting, hold it in my mouth, balanced on my head, etc.

1.1.5 says a course of fire can't dictate a shooting stance. Does forcing me to hold the box in one hand constitute dictating a stance?

[bikerburgess]

Actually sounds like a good way to keep it from getting thrown (something that may want to be avoided) but it doesn't mandate your shooting stance as you have the option to go drop it off before you shoot at all if you wanted

[High Lord Gomer]

The stage designer can be as specific or vague as they want in specifying such things. My opinion is that such requirement is covered by the "conditions may be created" within 1.1.5:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

It is further encouraged (and restricted) by 1.1.8:

1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions.

[Sarge]

Sounds OK to me. I think we do it around here occasionally and typically say something like the case must be carried by the handle with your weak hand only while engaging targets. Or words to that effect.

[High Lord Gomer]

This stage had a long distance to travel, a reload or two, and some distant shots that would be much easier with both hands. I mainly did it to show some of our new people that sometimes it is worth it to take the penalty. I figured most people would have a hit factor around 5 so a 10 point PE would roughly equal 2 seconds. I definitely saved more than 2 seconds and got better hits by dropping the ammo can as soon as I started.

I intentionally left it vague to see how people would game it, though. One clipped it to his belt loop using his key ring. Several others strapped it to themselves.

BTW the targets were better arranged and I had another no shoot or two to try to ensure people would shoot from all 3 forward positions.

Edited October 27, 2014 by High Lord Gomer

[Sarge]

I wish you would not have posted that wsb buddy! The ammo can is the least of the issues with it.

How high is the "sky"? If you don't want shots between barrels then don't leave gaps.

Why a shooting box when it would be just as easy to stand behind rear fault line toes touching? Much less nailing and carrying.

How did shooters strap the ammo can on? Did they have a strap on there person for the entire match?

[remoandiris]

I mainly did it to show some of our new people that sometimes it is worth it to take the penalty. I figured most people would have a hit factor around 5 so a 10 point PE would roughly equal 2 seconds. I definitely saved more than 2 seconds and got better hits by dropping the ammo can as soon as I started.

You mean you didn't give penalties per shot fired without the can?

[High Lord Gomer]

I wish you would not have posted that wsb buddy! The ammo can is the least of the issues with it.

How high is the "sky"? If you don't want shots between barrels then don't leave gaps.

Why a shooting box when it would be just as easy to stand behind rear fault line toes touching? Much less nailing and carrying.

How did shooters strap the ammo can on? Did they have a strap on there person for the entire match?

LOL...I should know better than to post any WSBs!

Our ground is sometimes uneven and that can leave an inch or two gap between barrels. For level 1 matches I make that distinction because it is easier to stack barrels that put up walls.

"Most" of our shooters do not leave their strap on for the entire match, but that isn't a requirement.

[High Lord Gomer]

I mainly did it to show some of our new people that sometimes it is worth it to take the penalty. I figured most people would have a hit factor around 5 so a 10 point PE would roughly equal 2 seconds. I definitely saved more than 2 seconds and got better hits by dropping the ammo can as soon as I started.

You mean you didn't give penalties per shot fired without the can?

I still did not consider it a significant enough advantage to assess a shot per.

[Southpaw]

Thanks all for the replies. Was curious since I don't think I've seen wording like this before in the WSB. On this particular stage it made sense to shoot some targets one handed while on the way to the barrel to drop off the box. But now I'm curious what the penalty would have been. I think the wording as I said was "once you touch the tool box you must keep it in one hand until dropped in the barrel." So if I never touch the tool box and just shoot the whole stage freestyle I didn't violate that part of the WSB. It did also say the box must be in the barrel before the last shot is fired, so I'd only get 1 procedural for that. If I did touch the box, but didn't put it in the barrel then I'd get 2 procedurals for violating 2 different sentences in the WSB?

And for High Lord Gomer's stage. I would have thought that'd be a per shot procedural. What's everyone else's take?

I'm now going off topic (seems like my initial quesion's been fully answered), but how do you draw the line on procedurals on a "significant advantage" to assess a procedural per occurrence vs. per shot? For example, we had a stage a few months ago where the FFZ was split into 4 sections and you had to roll/drag a barrel with you and keep it in the same part of the FFZ while shooting. A friend was pushing the barrel, it rolled into one section of the FFZ, he stepped in and started shooting, but the barrel kept rolling into the next part of the FFZ in the middle of his shooting those targets. He was assessed a per shot procedural.

[remoandiris]

I mainly did it to show some of our new people that sometimes it is worth it to take the penalty. I figured most people would have a hit factor around 5 so a 10 point PE would roughly equal 2 seconds. I definitely saved more than 2 seconds and got better hits by dropping the ammo can as soon as I started.

You mean you didn't give penalties per shot fired without the can?

I still did not consider it a significant enough advantage to assess a shot per.

WHAT??? Whatever. Your stage, your rules. So how did the n00bs handle it? Did they drop the box or did they carry it and shoot SHO?

The only thing this discussion taught me is to ask what the penalties are prior to the start. Then I would decide if carrying the box is worth it or not.

Edited October 27, 2014 by remoandiris

[JAFO]

Thanks all for the replies. Was curious since I don't think I've seen wording like this before in the WSB. On this particular stage it made sense to shoot some targets one handed while on the way to the barrel to drop off the box. But now I'm curious what the penalty would have been. I think the wording as I said was "once you touch the tool box you must keep it in one hand until dropped in the barrel." So if I never touch the tool box and just shoot the whole stage freestyle I didn't violate that part of the WSB. It did also say the box must be in the barrel before the last shot is fired, so I'd only get 1 procedural for that. If I did touch the box, but didn't put it in the barrel then I'd get 2 procedurals for violating 2 different sentences in the WSB?

Since the WSB intended you to shoot one-handed for the entire course, I'd assess a procedural per shot in that instance. Two-handed shooting is a big advantage over single hand.

Edited October 28, 2014 by JAFO

[JAFO]

I'm now going off topic (seems like my initial quesion's been fully answered), but how do you draw the line on procedurals on a "significant advantage" to assess a procedural per occurrence vs. per shot? For example, we had a stage a few months ago where the FFZ was split into 4 sections and you had to roll/drag a barrel with you and keep it in the same part of the FFZ while shooting. A friend was pushing the barrel, it rolled into one section of the FFZ, he stepped in and started shooting, but the barrel kept rolling into the next part of the FFZ in the middle of his shooting those targets. He was assessed a per shot procedural.

Some things to consider on significant advantage: Did you save significant time (e.g., skipping a mandatory reload)? Did you give yourself a much better view/position than intended (e.g., stepping well outside the fault line on a hard lean shot)? Did you allow yourself a more stable shooting platform (e.g., shooting with two hands vs one)?

In your barrel example, if your friend had completed his shooting in the first zone before the barrel went into the next, I wouldn't asses him any procedurals. Since it left the zone before he was done, he gained time on other shooters who had to either stop it from going too far or get it moving again. I'd consider that significant and assess a procedural per shot, but only for the shots taken after the barrel left the zone.

[remoandiris]

Thanks all for the replies. Was curious since I don't think I've seen wording like this before in the WSB. On this particular stage it made sense to shoot some targets one handed while on the way to the barrel to drop off the box. But now I'm curious what the penalty would have been. I think the wording as I said was "once you touch the tool box you must keep it in one hand until dropped in the barrel." So if I never touch the tool box and just shoot the whole stage freestyle I didn't violate that part of the WSB. It did also say the box must be in the barrel before the last shot is fired, so I'd only get 1 procedural for that. If I did touch the box, but didn't put it in the barrel then I'd get 2 procedurals for violating 2 different sentences in the WSB?

Since the WSB intended you to shoot one-handed for the entire course, I'd assess a procedural per shot in that instance. Two-handed shooting is a big advantage over single hand.

Even I know "intent" has nothing to do with WSBs. But giving a single procedural when the WSB says the box has to be carried the entire COF is bullshit.

[JAFO]

Sorry. I'm not saying "intended" as in "the stage designer's intent was for you do it this way." Rather, when the WSB says you must carry the object in your weak hand while engaging targets and you don't, you have circumvented the procedure you were intended to follow.

[High Lord Gomer]

Thanks all for the replies. Was curious since I don't think I've seen wording like this before in the WSB. On this particular stage it made sense to shoot some targets one handed while on the way to the barrel to drop off the box. But now I'm curious what the penalty would have been. I think the wording as I said was "once you touch the tool box you must keep it in one hand until dropped in the barrel." So if I never touch the tool box and just shoot the whole stage freestyle I didn't violate that part of the WSB. It did also say the box must be in the barrel before the last shot is fired, so I'd only get 1 procedural for that. If I did touch the box, but didn't put it in the barrel then I'd get 2 procedurals for violating 2 different sentences in the WSB?

Since the WSB intended you to shoot one-handed for the entire course, I'd assess a procedural per shot in that instance. Two-handed shooting is a big advantage over single hand.

Even I know "intent" has nothing to do with WSBs. But giving a single procedural when the WSB says the box has to be carried the entire COF is bullshit.

LOL....you are falling into the same trap many people did thinking I "intended" that they had to shoot one handed.

I agree that it is a PE per shot if a significant advantage is gained.

If the WSB had described the requirement such that it forced you to shoot one handed then not carrying the empty ammo can would have been a significant advantage since you could instead shoot with both hands.

BUT...I did not say how they had to carry the can. Carried behind you with a strap slung over your shoulder/neck is perfectly legal and allows you to still shoot with both hands. Since you are already shooting with both hands, avoiding the very minor inconvenience of carrying the empty ammo can that way is NOT a significant advantage and therefore only resulted in one PE.

[remoandiris]

BUT...I did not say how they had to carry the can. Carried behind you with a strap slung over your shoulder/neck is perfectly legal and allows you to still shoot with both hands. Since you are already shooting with both hands, avoiding the very minor inconvenience of carrying the empty ammo can that way is NOT a significant advantage and therefore only resulted in one PE.

Oh, I didn't realize there was a strap on the can so everyone had the same opportunity to sling it and use 2 hands.

[Sarge]

Can we all please quit saying strap on?

[High Lord Gomer]

Something you want to tell us, Sarge?

[High Lord Gomer]

No, the strap wasn't on the can, people had their own that they could take off and on, just like a jacket that could be used to carry a "baby" (in other stages).

[Sarge]

Something you want to tell us, Sarge?

uh,......... no?

[Southpaw]

Ok, this is turning into a more interesting conversation than my initial question was (especially the part about strap ons ).

So how DOES everyone determine what's a "significant advantage" or not? It seems like even in this thread with High Lord Gomer's stage there's some disagreement. And in my example of the barrel stage (which is hard to explain without seeing the WSB), my friend over-rolled the barrel into the next FFZ, but he would have had to roll it there anyway to fire at the next group of targets so at most saved maybe 1-2 seconds by pushing it too hard. Average hit factor I believe was under 5, so a single procedural would have made up for the most possible time he gained from this.

And now some other examples that come to mind:

-A hard lean around a wall where the shooter puts his foot on the fault line, but just his toes touch the ground beyond the fault line. Probably could have leaned just as far out with his foot in the exact same spot, but if he kept his toes off the ground?

-10.2.1 specifically mentions gaining support from an object beyond the fault line when discussing just one procedural per occurrence. Most situations I can think of where a shooter would do this would give them a fairly significant advantage on the shots their taking in that position...otherwise why would you brace yourself on that object...

-could probably think of a lot more, but curious what criteria people use in determining a "significant advantage", it seems at our local clubs it's a fairly low threshold compared to others.

No, the strap wasn't on the can, people had their own that they could take off and on, just like a jacket that could be used to carry a "baby" (in other stages).

Who carries a strap around with them at a match with the intention of attaching it to a stage prop? So once I hear this walkthrough I could go to my car and grab a spare rifle sling and then attach it to the stage prop before the start signal? Or just have it in my hands at the beep and then immediately attach it and sling the ammo can over my shoulder? Do people actually do this?

[EkuJustice]

Not a fan of high lords stage as the stage is poorly worded and there is no provision for reloading or clearing a jam. Personally I don't want someone trying to clear a jam or reload while juggling a prop like that

[Sarge]

Not a fan of high lords stage as the stage is poorly worded and there is no provision for reloading or clearing a jam. Personally I don't want someone trying to clear a jam or reload while juggling a prop like that

I think 10.2.8 would apply allowing the use of the non shooting hand

[High Lord Gomer]

Not a fan of high lords stage as the stage is poorly worded and there is no provision for reloading or clearing a jam. Personally I don't want someone trying to clear a jam or reload while juggling a prop like that

I think 10.2.8 would apply allowing the use of the non shooting hand

That only comes into play if strong or weak hand only is required. My stage was intentionally vague so as NOT to require the use of only one hand.

Put another way, if the WSB said, "Start with a penny balanced on the end of your left pointer finger. Penny must be carried for the entire stage" Would you shoot the stage one handed while balancing the penny on the other or would you drop it in your pocket and run?

When the WSB says "Start with hands on marks" that doesn't mean they have to stay on the marks for the entire stage.