10.5.2

[omnia1911]

Recently, there has been some discussion on one of the shooting forums about what happens if a competitor's muzzle breaks the 180, during the course of fire, while in the holster. For example: the competitor falls forward or downrange before drawing his gun, and the muzzle ends up pointing up range.

The correct procedure is simple, and is supported by the rules. The RO stops the competitor, has him unload and show clear, and issues a match disqualification for unsafe gun handling, per section 10.5.2 of the rulebook.

Rule 10.5.2 states:

"If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearward, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not."

Some have said that since the gun is still in the holster that it's not a safety violation, but the rule doesn't specify that the gun must be in the competitor's hand, it simply addresses the direction of the muzzle.

Troy McManus -- NROI RMI

December 22, 2004

Comments (2) Range Officer's Creed

HMMM....

So, I'm loaded up, holstered, and assuming the starting position, which is facing up range. My holster has a forward cant to it, but I'm in compliance with 5.2.7.3. Have I violated 10.5.2? It would seem so, based on the ruling given in the scenario above.

I suspect the same question could be asked if my holster was canted to the rear, and the starting position was facing down range. Either way, my holstered gun is beyond the 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop. It seems to me that you have to at least make an exception to 10.5.2, if the shooter has not violated 5.2.7.3, or exempt all holstered guns from 10.5.2. Otherwise, most shooters will be, or should be, DQed before the start signal (remember, the COF starts at the LAMR command).

[mactiger]

5.2.7.3 addresses the muzzle angle of a holstered gun while standing relaxed, not while lying on the ground, and is about the only exception to the 180 rule that you will get.

Troy

[omnia1911]

5.2.7.3 addresses the muzzle angle of a holstered gun while standing relaxed, not while lying on the ground, and is about the only exception to the 180 rule that you will get.

Troy

That is good to know, but that is not what the rule says, which is the same logic that is being used in the above scenario to issue a DQ.

...and what if the start position doesn't specify that the shooter must stand erect? This issue may come full circle to the issue of whether the start position is freestyle. I won't go there though.

I can see someone using the logic applied in the above scenario for issuing a DQ to someone who comes to the line with his gun in his range bag, is given the LAMR command, pulls the removable sleeve/with gun inside from the range bag, the RO notices that the gun inside the sleeve is pointing up range, the shooter rotates the sleeve so that the muzzle in pointing down range,removes the gun from the sleeve and holsters it, but the RO stops him and issues a DQ for violating 10.5.2., since there are no exceptions, except for 5.2.7.3.

[mactiger]

5.7.3 allows for a certain amount of holster cant, when standing relaxed. It does not apply beyond that limit or that position. Nobody in their right mind would allow a start position in a course of fire that allows the muzzle of the handgun to point uprange.

Your bagged gun scenario is far-fetched and irrelevant: the original question was whether a competitor earns a DQ for falling with his handgun in the holster during a course of fire. I answered that question. If you disagree, which you are free to do, email John Amidon and ask him. I won't argue the point anymore, especially with an anonymous poster.

Troy

[John Baier]

Troy,

Question: shooter is shooting a 3 gun match and at the LAMR command uncases his rifle or shotgun on the line and low and behold the muzzle is pointed up range while still in the case. DQ or not?

[billwright]

Troy,

No Mate, it doesnt matter if its 3 gun or whatever as long as you dont touch the gun and carefully turn the case around before you put you hands on it your ok.

Of course if you do touch it, then its time to go home as in touching a dropped gun etc and pointing up range etc.

The answer to the question of where the gun in the holster points within the course of fire has been covered by the GURU ...Vinnie,, and the answer is ..as soon as the buzzer goes, draw gun or risk a DQ if you move while its in the holster because its only in open class where the bloody thing is strapped to your front that it will not point backwards at some point in the movement (try it with a rod in the barrel).

Bill

[omnia1911]

I agree that my scenarios are far fetched, but I also think that the interpretation of 10.5.2 in the issuing of a DQ in your scenario was stretching things a bit too.

If the issue is the fact that Open guns don't use "safe" holster designs, then fix the holster problem, but to make the blanket ruling that a holstered gun, loaded or not, is considered "unsafe gun handling" if it points up range sounds a little far fetched to me. Sorry. You're telling me that you are going to DQ a shooter who falls down in a similar manner to the one in your scenario while wearing a IWB holster?

What is strange is the fact that the same shooter could trip and fall down with the same holstered gun out in the parking lot and no one would bat an eye; bust out laughing maybe, but not duck for cover.

Thanks Troy

[Nik Habicht]

What is strange is the fact that the same shooter could trip and fall down with the same holstered gun out in the parking lot and no one would bat an eye; bust out laughing maybe, but not duck for cover.

Omnia,

that last bit of logic doesn't hold water --- there are other distinctions in the rulebook for situations that occur "in the parking lot" as opposed to during the Course of Fire. You can drop a gun anywhere outside of the time period during a course of fire, and as long as you get an RO to recover it, and as long as it proves to be clear upon examination ---no DQ. Drop the gun upon unholstering after Load and Make Ready --- DQ.

If a shooter does anything during the course of fire that looks to be out of control or a danger to self or others and I'll be yelling "Stop." Then, after ensuring that everyone's safe, we'll figure out whether a re-shoot or DQ are called for. Why the hard line? My number one job as an RO and as a match director is to do everything possible to ensure the safety of the competitors, match staff and spectators. Bottom line --- the shooter is responsible for his guns muzzle direction at all times during the course of fire. Mistakes are made and stuff happens sometimes --- but our safety rules are designed with double redundancy to ensure that mistakes or stuff do not end with an accident....

Oh, and for the record --- I fell once at a rifle match while scorekeeping. No one iin my squad bust out laughing --- at least not until after they were sure I was o.k., on my feet again, with abrasions on my hands bandaged. The earthqyuake jokes started soon after though. Shooters are a great bunch of people.....

[omnia1911]

What is strange is the fact that the same shooter could trip and fall down with the same holstered gun out in the parking lot and no one would bat an eye; bust out laughing maybe, but not duck for cover.

Omnia,

that last bit of logic doesn't hold water --- there are other distinctions in the rulebook for situations that occur "in the parking lot" as opposed to during the Course of Fire. You can drop a gun anywhere outside of the time period during a course of fire, and as long as you get an RO to recover it, and as long as it proves to be clear upon examination ---no DQ. Drop the gun upon unholstering after Load and Make Ready --- DQ.

If a shooter does anything during the course of fire that looks to be out of control or a danger to self or others and I'll be yelling "Stop." Then, after ensuring that everyone's safe, we'll figure out whether a re-shoot or DQ are called for. Why the hard line? My number one job as an RO and as a match director is to do everything possible to ensure the safety of the competitors, match staff and spectators. Bottom line --- the shooter is responsible for his guns muzzle direction at all times during the course of fire. Mistakes are made and stuff happens sometimes --- but our safety rules are designed with double redundancy to ensure that mistakes or stuff do not end with an accident....

Oh, and for the record --- I fell once at a rifle match while scorekeeping. No one iin my squad bust out laughing --- at least not until after they were sure I was o.k., on my feet again, with abrasions on my hands bandaged. The earthqyuake jokes started soon after though. Shooters are a great bunch of people.....

Omnia,

that last bit of logic doesn't hold water --- there are other distinctions in the rulebook for situations that occur "in the parking lot" as opposed to during the Course of Fire.  You can drop a gun anywhere outside of the time period during a course of fire, and as long as you get an RO to recover it, and as long as it proves to be clear upon examination ---no DQ.  Drop the gun upon unholstering after Load and Make Ready --- DQ.

I'm referring to the shooter falling down while wearing a holstered gun, not dropping his gun.

If the RO wants to stop the shooter who falls down while wearing a holstered gun to make sure everyone is safe, go ahead. I would have no problem with that, but to issue a DQ if the muzzle is pointing up range, rather than giving a reshoot is stretching the otherwise good reasons for having 10.5.2.

I would over ride any ruling like that at my matches.

[Jim Norman]

Question

When standing erect, the rules alow your holstered gun to point how far uprange?

Assume an FBI cant. Also, should this be a distance? or should it be an angular measurement? After all, a 6-4 competitor will point a greater distance rearward than a 5-0 competitor each having EXACTLY the same holster angle.

As to a shooter starting with his gun breaking the 180. I posted a while back a photo of a shooter wearing a canted holster rising from a chair. If the shooter bends foward as he rises, he can easily break the 180, in fact he can almost point his gun level towards the rear.

Jim Norman

[omnia1911]

Question

When standing erect, the rules alow your holstered gun to point how far up range?

Assume an FBI cant. Also, should this be a distance? or should it be an angular measurement? After all, a 6-4 competitor will point a greater distance rearward than a 5-0 competitor each having EXACTLY the same holster angle.

As to a shooter starting with his gun breaking the 180. I posted a while back a photo of a shooter wearing a canted holster rising from a chair. If the shooter bends foward as he rises, he can easily break the 180, in fact he can almost point his gun level towards the rear.

Jim Norman

Actually the rule says standing "relaxed", but the distance is 1 meter (3.28 feet) from your feet.

You could be breaking the 180 by considerably more, if you were sitting and facing up range. Some holsters get rotated to extreme angles when you sit. I recall a classifier I shot a few times that had you starting seated facing up range.