Weak thumb on trigger gaurd

[Dowter]

In my never ending quest to find somewhere to stick my weak thumb in a freestyle grip I've developed a grip where I pinch my weak thumb down so that it's not anywhere near the frame.

Basically the thumb rests against the front of the trigger guard (STI Edge) and I can actually pinch the trigger guard between my thumb and forefinger.  I have enormous hands and am probably one of the few people who can do this.  

Now the question is - should I?  I took my weak thumb off the frame because too many GMs said not to steer the gun with the thumb.  I don't want to pick up a new bad habit after dropping another.

Pinching the trigger guard with my thumb might be like how some shooters would put their index finger on the trigger guard, though I know that very few (except for Barnhart) do it anymore.

This also reminds me of the argument made against putting the weak thumb against the trigger guard that I have had a question about.  Putting your thumb on the frame will cause inconsistancy because the pressure that you put on the frame with your thumb will change from day to day.  But isn't consistant pressure just a problem indicative of the the grip in general and can't really be avoided in any of its elements.  

(This reminds me of a female shooter that I saw on an old Lenny Magill shooting video.  She was shooting in a stance that I mentally referred to as the "crippled marionette".  She locked all of her joints while shooting because she wanted consistancy.  It looked very painful to shoot from. )

[Dowter]

Aw crap.  I go through the effort to spell "guard" correctly in the message body and I missed the misspelling in the title.  It's just one of those days.

[Paul Sharp]

Take some ammo, hit the range and shoot a boat load of Bill Drills.  

I will set up a number of targets based on the number of things I am experiementing with.  In this case I would use 2 targets.  One target for "thumbs off" and one target for the "Gargantua Grip".  

Than you'll know the answer for yourself and it won't matter what anybody says....., and with hands that big no one in their right mind will say much.

[Dowter]

I've experimented with my techniques before with live drills.  There is a problem though with doing just this.  Sometimes a poor technique can be compensated for by the comfortability with the poor technique.   Many bad techniques that I have since dropped originally seemed like good ideas at the time because I was comfortable with using them.   When I tried a better technique the better technique failed because I wasn't as comfortable using it.

In my humble opinion this is why there are actually some people in the world who still think that you can control recoil better with the weaver stance.

hmmmmm... I like the terminology though - "gargantua grip"

(Edited by Dowter at 3:02 pm on Mar. 3, 2003)

[Paul Sharp]

True enough..., but, how else can we find out, for ourselves, what works and what does not?  I was trained to shoot the Weaver originally by guy's that "told" me over and over, this is the only way to make effective hits while shooting a "service weapon".  Since that time I have taken a lot of classes and had the opportunity to train with a lot of really great people.  Even so, I still test everything I learn for myself.  Somethings work across the board and could be called truisms, other things have to be tested.

For pistol I like the Bill Drill because if any grip issues will arise this drill will definitely bring them out.  If I am testing strictly my grip I will fire 6 rounds fast as I can recover the sight in the A zone, with no presentation involved, pistol is already pointed in, with sights aligned, just waiting for the beep.  That way training issues of obtaining a decent grip from the holster won't affect the outcome.  In this way I hope to eliminate the issues you mentioned, such as comfort with a certain approach.

I think the problem arises when we attempt to validate a certain "technique" rather than search optimal performance.  For me, sometimes I have so much ego wrapped up in a certain thing that I "cheat" performance, otherwise the results would bruise my ego too much.  IMO, that would explain the better recoil group you mentioned.

Good luck.

[Flexmoney]

Great posts guys.  Some real pearls of wisdom in there.

My question is...how do you simulate stress in practice?  (or even in a local match?)

Seems to me that any time when don't have symmetry, then as the stress changes...so does everything else.

Some shooters may have so much experience that they are comfortable even a Major matches, even shooting steel man-on-man.  They may be pumped up, they may be intense, but they are still within their comfort-zone.  

How do we simulate being out of our comfort-zone in practice?  

[Dowter]

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Quote: from Paul Sharp on 3:45 pm on Mar. 3, 2003

True enough..., but, how else can we find out, for ourselves, what works and what does not?  

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Oh, I wasn't dismissing the importance of testing things out for oneself.  I was just trying to supplement it with the experience and knowledge of others.  The only thing better than learning from your own mistakes is learning from others mistakes first.

[Dowter]

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In my humble opinion this is why there are actually some people in the world who still think that you can control recoil better with the weaver stance.

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I think that we've all shook our head in befuddlement from that one episode of American Shooter.  *hehe*

Hey! He helped to invent IPSC.  I won't bad mouth him.

[Paul Sharp]

Dowter,

I'm with you.  I read a cool quote once that is similar, a smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

Flex,

I'm not to sure if we can really induce the stress of an actual match in a practice.  Maybe we can if we force ourselves to only work on the things that we can't do well.  A practice where we shoot a qualifier, left handed only might do it, as we would have a sense/feeling of how this would normally be going along if we were shooting it freestyle.  This would create the possibility of failure which would create stress by taking us out of our comfort zone.  Another approach would be to shoot a match with one hand, or left handed only.  Anything that would take us away from a "sure thing", removing the possibility of performing at our normal/expected levels would definitely kick us in the butt and take us away from the familiar.

A little trick I picked up from one of the best wrestlers I have ever met was so simple yet very difficult to apply.  He told me that he would choose before a practice, today I will not use my right hand.  Then he would go through the entire practice like that.  This did several things, 1) actually gave everyone else a chance,  2) forced him to work with and overcome a greater handicap than he might ever face in a match,  3) removed his fear of losing, ie; trying to workout with only one hand/leg/only allowed one offensive move regardless of opening presented, which resulted in him continually being place in a position of disadvantage and having to fight out from bottom so the possibility of winning was a non-issue,  4) Forced him to develop a complete "game", rather than continue to repeat those things that he could do with his eyes closed and still score.

hmmm....,

[benos]

Yes, many good posts here.

"My question is...how do you simulate stress in practice?  (or even in a local match?)"

That's a good question because if you can answer it for yourself you will then know how to guide your practice.

For me, I don't think it's possible. That's why I became very sensitive to the lessons I learned in competition. A particular technique may work fine until you up the stress level. Then it can work against you - just like your personality can.

Three valuable lessons, I learned in COMPETITION -

a) Take the (mental) time to set your position behind the gun at each position.

Just relax a little, and don't try so hard.

c) Look right at the gun (sights) when or after it's pointed at the target.

d) Repeat b.

be

[mcoliver]

I used to pinch my thumb down but now consider it a bad habit that still re-appears every now and then.  I noticed if I pinch it down the fleshy muscles in the thumb base pressures the rear of the pistol to move to the right. This required me to shift my over-all grip to compensate.  And in rapid fire caused my shots to go all over the board.  If I keep it pointed straight shot placements looks better. YMMV though.