Some CFE powder data with 147gr Bayou Bullets

[Wolfactual]

Disclaimer: You may want to view this data with the knowledge that I am relatively new to reloading (about two months now). I tend to be a perfectionist. I am a trained scientist, a doctor, and the son of an engineer so I come by it naturally. I have been known to drive away otherwise willing partners with repeated measuring and an obsession with details. YMMV but I think my data is good. I think. I load to practice and shoot USPSA / IDPA.

Set up: Reloading with a Hornady LNL AP Progressive loader with Custom Dies. Stations loaded as follows: Full Length Size Die -> Powder Measure with Pistol Micrometer insert and PTX Expander -> Powder Cop -> Bullet Feeding Die -> Taper Crimp Seating Die with Micrometer Insert

Materials: Mixed range brass; CCI Small Pistol Primers; CFE Hodgdon Powder; 147gr Bayou Bullets

Equipment: Prochrono Digital Chronograph; Glock 34 Gen 4 with stock barrel and stock recoil spring

Conditions: 80+ degrees at 0800 to 0900 this morning in Liberty Hill, Texas (near Austin)

All rounds were OAL 1.15 inches (see below). All 9mm, of course.

Results: [Powder Wt. -> High fps -> Low fps -> Avg fps of 5 rounds tested for each Powder Wt. -> Standard Deviation]

3.3 -> 814 -> 742 -> 784 -> 22

3.5 -> 840 -> 817 -> 828 -> 9

3.7 -> 880 -> 845 -> 868 -> 12

3.9 -> 951 -> 897 -> 922 -> 21

Subjective: The SD for the 3.9 load is high compared to the 3.5 and 3.7 loads which may indicate that the highest fps for that trial was an outlier. I went back and checked the OAL setting for the 3.9 load and sure enough I somehow moved the micrometer and it was loading at 1.145. The other loads were measured with digital calipers to 1.15. It was late when I did the (last) 3.9 loads and I do not remember measuring them. Also, a mouse appeared at that time in my reloading room (WTH?) and was running around my chair at times. Traps and cheese purchased today so no more excuses after tonight. My guess is that at 1.15 the average would have dropped to about 900fps. There seemed to be about a 40fps gain with each 0.2gr increase in powder weight. The 3.3 loads did not cycle the gun reliably with 3 of 5 jamming as the slide did not travel back far enough to chamber the next round. CFE is a somewhat slow burner. With 147s, it did not feel near as soft as with TiteGroup [ 2.8 to 2.9 gr -> 881 -> 857 -> 867 -> 8 ] or even Unique. CFE leaves a fine black dust, more than TG, Unique, or VV. I don't think I will be using the CFE if TG or V V is available (or others that I want to try).

Comments?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Wolfactual

[phecksel]

I have questions rather than comments.

Just picked up some CFE Pistol. Looking at the new Data sheet from Hodgon for 147gr, it has the most data for

HDY XTP and shows 3.7-4.2 @ 1.100

Several other bullets it only lisats WSF powder, including for FMJ 3.9-4.3 @ 1.169

The booklet shows WSF as being very close to CFE-P in burn rate.

I haven't purchased a Chrono... yet

I loaded some heavy plated boat tail at 3.9 @ 1.169, have yet to shoot them.

Why did you choose 1.15?

Why was your highest powder charge at the lowest recommended level?

[BattleCreek]

I just loaded 630 rds using this CFE Pistol powder, using mixed brass, Berrys 115RN FMJ and CCI 500... COL: 1.13 @ 5.6grns

Hodgdon data shows 5.3-5.9 for 115gn

These are my first reloads so I have nothing to compare it to other than factory ammo...

yesterday I shot 300rds thru a G26 I also shot 5 rds of UMC for comparison, nothing scientific but my loads seemed superior to the factory, burned cleaner and had a little more umph....

I would love to try tite group or something else where I can stretch my powder for more rounds, but this is all I could pick up atm....

what would be a good powder for a newbie such as myself to use for 9mm and 40 primarily??

excellent write up btw....!!!

Edited July 6, 2014 by BattleCreek

[HOGRIDER]

My testing with CFE Pistol behind 147g Zero JHP has yielded excellent accuracy in my G17G4 @ 1.120 for GSSF competition load. 3.9gr produced 130.24PF.

Switching to the BarSto barrel, results with 147 Missouri and Bayou LFP are adequate for practice (poor accuracy); but I can say the recoil impulse is higher for both FMJ and lead bullet types when compared to VV N320!

IMO, CFE-P, being a slower burning powder, might produce better results with smaller weight bullets or driving the FMJ 147's at higher velocities.

Have to say it meter's through the Dillon XL650 powder measure with excellent results.

HR

[rtp]

Subjective: The SD for the 3.9 load is high compared to the 3.5 and 3.7 loads which may indicate that the highest fps for that trial was an outlier. I went back and checked the OAL setting for the 3.9 load and sure enough I somehow moved the micrometer and it was loading at 1.145. The other loads were measured with digital calipers to 1.15. It was late when I did the (last) 3.9 loads and I do not remember measuring them. Also, a mouse appeared at that time in my reloading room (WTH?) and was running around my chair at times. Traps and cheese purchased today so no more excuses after tonight. My guess is that at 1.15 the average would have dropped to about 900fps. There seemed to be about a 40fps gain with each 0.2gr increase in powder weight. The 3.3 loads did not cycle the gun reliably with 3 of 5 jamming as the slide did not travel back far enough to chamber the next round. CFE is a somewhat slow burner. With 147s, it did not feel near as soft as with TiteGroup [ 2.8 to 2.9 gr -> 881 -> 857 -> 867 -> 8 ] or even Unique. CFE leaves a fine black dust, more than TG, Unique, or VV. I don't think I will be using the CFE if TG or V V is available (or others that I want to try).

Comments?

Your loads < 3.7gr don't make PF, so I'd just discard them. I think somewhere you also mentioned only 5 rounds per test? Increase that to 10 or more, and your numbers (SD, ES) may well change.

Here's some additional CFE-P load results..click to make more legible. I haven't gotten back to doing more with it, but am seeing it act a bit slower, and needing on average, for my loads, ~.2gr more CFE-P to make same velocity vs my WSF loads.

[rtp]

I have questions rather than comments.

...

I haven't purchased a Chrono... yet

I loaded some heavy plated boat tail at 3.9 @ 1.169, have yet to shoot them.

Why did you choose 1.15?

1.169" OAL is SAAMI Max, not something most of us load to, unless it's an Open gun with a reamed chamber. 1.169" max or may not even feed well in some magazines.

Have you checked your specific gun barrel's max OAL for the projectile you're using?

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131

Assuming the bullet and barrel lets us, it's not uncommon to see FMJ/RN 9mm loaded to ~1.15", and HPs to 1.10", as with 'standard' profile factory projectiles, those will feed and fire ok in most guns, but...see link above.

Lastly - what is a 'heavy plated boat tail' 9mm bullet?!?

[Wolfactual]

I have questions rather than comments.

Just picked up some CFE Pistol. Looking at the new Data sheet from Hodgon for 147gr, it has the most data for

HDY XTP and shows 3.7-4.2 @ 1.100

Several other bullets it only lisats WSF powder, including for FMJ 3.9-4.3 @ 1.169

The booklet shows WSF as being very close to CFE-P in burn rate.

I haven't purchased a Chrono... yet

I loaded some heavy plated boat tail at 3.9 @ 1.169, have yet to shoot them.

Why did you choose 1.15?

Why was your highest powder charge at the lowest recommended level?

I chose 1.15 as my Glock likes them. I was also trying to see if it made a difference in felt recoil and accuracy compared to my usual 1.14 OAL. Nothing remarkable.

I failed to mention this was a secondary test. I had tested higher loads and was trying to edge closer to 850fps.

[rtp]

I just loaded 630 rds using this CFE Pistol powder, using mixed brass, Berrys 115RN FMJ and CCI 500... COL: 1.13 @ 5.6grns

Hodgdon data shows 5.3-5.9 for 115gn

These are my first reloads so I have nothing to compare it to other than factory ammo...

yesterday I shot 300rds thru a G26 I also shot 5 rds of UMC for comparison, nothing scientific but my loads seemed superior to the factory, burned cleaner and had a little more umph....

I would love to try tite group or something else where I can stretch my powder for more rounds, but this is all I could pick up atm....

what would be a good powder for a newbie such as myself to use for 9mm and 40 primarily??

excellent write up btw....!!!

Please get a chrono, and re-read whatever loading manual you have, on why we work up loads starting from min. loads.

In your case, at that OAL, and with CFE-P being a fairly slow powder, the load is probably OK, but it's not a great practice to load up 600+ rounds as your first ever load, nor as a completely untested load.

The potential for 'bad things happening' only gets worse when moving to a faster powder like Titegroup.

Given what you wrote above, I'd say please stick to slower powders until you get more time/experience/reading/knowledge under your belt.

No powder is a 'good powder' if the intent is to load > 500 untested loads at mid-load.

Good powder for others = whatever we can find nowadays.

[Wolfactual]

I just loaded 630 rds using this CFE Pistol powder, using mixed brass, Berrys 115RN FMJ and CCI 500... COL: 1.13 @ 5.6grns

Hodgdon data shows 5.3-5.9 for 115gn

These are my first reloads so I have nothing to compare it to other than factory ammo...

yesterday I shot 300rds thru a G26 I also shot 5 rds of UMC for comparison, nothing scientific but my loads seemed superior to the factory, burned cleaner and had a little more umph....

I would love to try tite group or something else where I can stretch my powder for more rounds, but this is all I could pick up atm....

what would be a good powder for a newbie such as myself to use for 9mm and 40 primarily??

excellent write up btw....!!!

Thanks BC.

I am too new at this to give advice on which powder but I've read a great deal and would love to get my hands on some VV 320, Clays, WST, WSF. I have tried Unique and liked it.

Good luck!

[Wolfactual]

Subjective: The SD for the 3.9 load is high compared to the 3.5 and 3.7 loads which may indicate that the highest fps for that trial was an outlier. I went back and checked the OAL setting for the 3.9 load and sure enough I somehow moved the micrometer and it was loading at 1.145. The other loads were measured with digital calipers to 1.15. It was late when I did the (last) 3.9 loads and I do not remember measuring them. Also, a mouse appeared at that time in my reloading room (WTH?) and was running around my chair at times. Traps and cheese purchased today so no more excuses after tonight. My guess is that at 1.15 the average would have dropped to about 900fps. There seemed to be about a 40fps gain with each 0.2gr increase in powder weight. The 3.3 loads did not cycle the gun reliably with 3 of 5 jamming as the slide did not travel back far enough to chamber the next round. CFE is a somewhat slow burner. With 147s, it did not feel near as soft as with TiteGroup [ 2.8 to 2.9 gr -> 881 -> 857 -> 867 -> 8 ] or even Unique. CFE leaves a fine black dust, more than TG, Unique, or VV. I don't think I will be using the CFE if TG or V V is available (or others that I want to try).

Comments?

Your loads < 3.7gr don't make PF, so I'd just discard them. I think somewhere you also mentioned only 5 rounds per test? Increase that to 10 or more, and your numbers (SD, ES) may well change.

Here's some additional CFE-P load results..click to make more legible. I haven't gotten back to doing more with it, but am seeing it act a bit slower, and needing on average, for my loads, ~.2gr more CFE-P to make same velocity vs my WSF loads.

I have seen that spreadsheet and used it to create a starting point. I have found Bayou Bullets to have more velocity than those of other manufacturers. Is that possible? Also, next time I will increase my sample size. I was being cheap and stingy.

[rtp]

Absolutely possible. In general, lead and coated run faster than plated, with jacketed running the slowest.

[Bigblockbill]

I am new to reloading, and really like that spread sheet. Can someone tell me where it came from?

[phecksel]

Lastly - what is a 'heavy plated boat tail' 9mm bullet?!?

Thank you for the link. I look forward to comparing my barrels and coming up with the perfect OAL

Heavy Plate Concave Base

http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-147-RN-HPCB-p/xc9mm-147hpcb-b0250.htm

[rtp]

I am new to reloading, and really like that spread sheet. Can someone tell me where it came from?

It's just an Excel spreadsheet I made, with every column sortable, so when someone's asking for X, e.g. a specific powder or weight bullet, I filter on that, then take a screenshot of the results.

The actual spreadsheet is wider/has more columns which I usually don't display.

Source - Me, specific load manual, or occasionally I'll grab some recipes online from people I believe trustworthy and not loading 'at or beyond the edge,' and will use them in filtered results to validate my plan for a new set of loads (which then go to get chronod, etc.).

Bulk load - Y/N - eventually after chrono and some accuracy testing and comparisons, I'll settle on a 'load these, if using this bullet/gun/powder combo'

Bullet cost and round cost columns

Group Size, elevation, and a notes column.

[rtp]

Lastly - what is a 'heavy plated boat tail' 9mm bullet?!?

Thank you for the link. I look forward to comparing my barrels and coming up with the perfect OAL

Heavy Plate Concave Base

http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-147-RN-HPCB-p/xc9mm-147hpcb-b0250.htm

Ahh - that's not a boat tail. Those bullets have a slight 'indentation' on their bottom.

I don't bother with Xtreme's HPCBs, or haven't, as I'm shooting Minor power factor, so not sure there's real benefit to be had there. YMMV as always.

[BattleCreek]

I just loaded 630 rds using this CFE Pistol powder, using mixed brass, Berrys 115RN FMJ and CCI 500... COL: 1.13 @ 5.6grns

Hodgdon data shows 5.3-5.9 for 115gn

These are my first reloads so I have nothing to compare it to other than factory ammo...

yesterday I shot 300rds thru a G26 I also shot 5 rds of UMC for comparison, nothing scientific but my loads seemed superior to the factory, burned cleaner and had a little more umph....

I would love to try tite group or something else where I can stretch my powder for more rounds, but this is all I could pick up atm....

what would be a good powder for a newbie such as myself to use for 9mm and 40 primarily??

excellent write up btw....!!!

Please get a chrono, and re-read whatever loading manual you have, on why we work up loads starting from min. loads.

In your case, at that OAL, and with CFE-P being a fairly slow powder, the load is probably OK, but it's not a great practice to load up 600+ rounds as your first ever load, nor as a completely untested load.

The potential for 'bad things happening' only gets worse when moving to a faster powder like Titegroup.

Given what you wrote above, I'd say please stick to slower powders until you get more time/experience/reading/knowledge under your belt.

No powder is a 'good powder' if the intent is to load > 500 untested loads at mid-load.

Good powder for others = whatever we can find nowadays.

I know I agree 100%.... I figured I had it dialed in from all my reading, I just moved from my "backyard range" a year ago... would have been nice to be able to load a few and test...

I got completely carried away, loaded every piece of brass I had laying around....

[phecksel]

Ahh - that's not a boat tail. Those bullets have a slight 'indentation' on their bottom.

I don't bother with Xtreme's HPCBs, or haven't, as I'm shooting Minor power factor, so not sure there's real benefit to be had there. YMMV as always.

Please explain, I'm at the bottom of the learning curve

Measured the bullet depth in my barrel. I could argue 1.2 was tight. 1.175 sat properly. Any reason why I would extend beyond 1.169?

[BattleCreek]

I only use reference material from manufacturers specs for bullets/powders...

I don't own a manual and personally don't think they are necessary for the loads I'm making, especially with a new powder a reloaders manual is just a paper weight...

[phecksel]

_{It dawned on me since the barrel set the position by the brass, how important brass length is to the equation. I'm sure it's obvious to everybody else here, but it was an epiphany for me}

_{Guess I'll be buying some new brass for the competition!}

[rtp]

Ahh - that's not a boat tail. Those bullets have a slight 'indentation' on their bottom.

I don't bother with Xtreme's HPCBs, or haven't, as I'm shooting Minor power factor, so not sure there's real benefit to be had there. YMMV as always.

Please explain, I'm at the bottom of the learning curve

Measured the bullet depth in my barrel. I could argue 1.2 was tight. 1.175 sat properly. Any reason why I would extend beyond 1.169?

SAAMI max is 1.169". Why would you load longer than this, when SAAMI specs are used in manufacturing of barrels as well as mags?

Unless running a custom barreled Open race gun, just stick to ~1.15" max OAL (assuming this will plunk test in your barrel).

The Xtreme Heavy Plateds are meant for higher velocities, in other words, Open guns reaching 1400+ FPS. There's just no need to buy them (at higher cost) for normal target or competition ammo, IMO, versus their standard 124gr RNs. Someone else may have a different opinion, but the 124gr RNs ('normal' plating) shoot fine here..

[phecksel]

Thank you for the great info. 147 gr was picked for the softer recoil, heavy plate, no particular reason. Hopefully I'll be able to order the chrono in the next couple of weeks!

[Powderman81]

FWIW using mixed range isn't helping your SD's any and isn't really comparing the consistency of the powder charges, just the thicknesses and differences of the volume of the cases that you have on hand. If you would sort out by manufacturer's it would shrink your numbers down a bit and be a "truer" test.

Just my $.02.

Powderman81

[Quag]

I have been reloading 9mm with Bayou Bullets 147 grn flat nose 1.135 to 1.14 OAL, 3.4 grns of Win 231 and a light crimp they generally meet 125 PF with some room to spare. When I chrono I always use a sample size of at least 10 for small sample sizes the statistics become an issue. I also like to use relative SD (SD/average) expressed as a %.

I am going to try Tite Group Starting at 3.2 grns and working up.

[rtp]

I have been reloading 9mm with Bayou Bullets 147 grn flat nose 1.135 to 1.14 OAL, 3.4 grns of Win 231 and a light crimp they generally meet 125 PF with some room to spare. When I chrono I always use a sample size of at least 10 for small sample sizes the statistics become an issue. I also like to use relative SD (SD/average) expressed as a %.

I am going to try Tite Group Starting at 3.2 grns and working up.

I expect you'll make PF with that load. I don't have my Bayou data in here, but they should run a bit faster than the Xtreme 147s for same/similar OAL.

Edited July 24, 2014 by rtp

[Quag]

I have been reloading 9mm with Bayou Bullets 147 grn flat nose 1.135 to 1.14 OAL, 3.4 grns of Win 231 and a light crimp they generally meet 125 PF with some room to spare. When I chrono I always use a sample size of at least 10 for small sample sizes the statistics become an issue. I also like to use relative SD (SD/average) expressed as a %.

I am going to try Tite Group Starting at 3.2 grns and working up.

I expect you'll make PF with that load. I don't have my Bayou data in here, but they should run a big faster than the Xtreme 147s for same/similar OAL.

Actually I made a mistake in post #23, I use 3.7 grns of Win 231 with my Bayou 147s to make PF, 3.4 would be just below PF, I tried it. 3.2 as a starting load for Tite is a very common recommendation (from the manuals and internet forums) one of my reloading books specifies 3.2 gns Tite for a starting load for 147 and has a velocity of 980 fps. If it chronos at 980 in my G34 I will be fine. However I do not like repeatability of my Dillon 550b powder drop for 3.2 it seems to vary +- 0.1 or even 0.2. I may try getting one of those micrometers from Optics Planet I hear they help.