So hooked!

[jayhkr]

My wife and I went to the range today, FINALLY, after not being able to get out for a few weeks due to various things. We had 100 WWB, and 298 of my very first reloads of various grains and lengths to try! BOOOOOY howdy am I hooked on this reloading stuff! We both really liked the feel of the 3.2gr TG in the 124gr SnS bullet. Since those were our very first rounds shot, I really didn't concentrate so much for accuracy, honestly I was just trying to count the holes to be sure everything was ejecting properly. I'm torn though, the longer OAL gave me better accuracy but we had to many feeding issues for it to be our prime load. But that's what this is all about is finding that "Sweet spot" for each of our guns! Going out again tomorrow with a good buddy who's been itching to try out my wife's M&P Shield, so I loaded up 300 - 3.3gr TG of the same bullet. THEN on Tuesday I have another good friend who just wants to go out and shoot so I'll be a busy loader this week! Time to put another order in actually! Torn between sticking with SnS or trying Bayou Bullets. Either way had tons of fun and we both came back with all of our fingers so it was a great day! Also got a chance to shoot a .45, .40 and a 1911 .45 (I think) BOY are those triggers nice on the 1911!! I can see why they are so sought after! Thanks again to everyone who helped out getting me to where I'm at! I'm hooked!

[tbrtt1]

Great to hear. 1000 rounds of Bayou and 1000 rounds of SNS to compare seems like a reasonable thing to do. If they use J&M Specialty Products P/L our of Australia for the coating, you're good to go. That's what Bayou and others are using. Looks like Bayou and SnS are priced similar. Probably can't go wrong either way. I am a big fan of the coated bullets. They just work and are the best bang for your buck.

[Butterpuc]

What velocities were you getting? With your longer COAL bullets, how long were they? The reason I ask is, 3.2gr of Titegroup is pretty standard for 147gr coated/moly (although to smoky for most competition shooters). Your velocities may have been to low to allow you pistol to function properly.

[jayhkr]

My indoor range doesn't allow for a chrono, so I can't answer that question. Trying to find some place that I can use one at, but so far the closest I know of is over 1.5 hours away. The issues I was having were at 3.4 and 3.6gr with the OAL at 1.118. Everything operated nicely at the shorter OAL. The coating on the SnS bullets are a bit different in so that I have to load a bit shorter for my barrel to accept the bullet. It's weird, but it is what it is. Going to try a SLIGHTLY tighter crimp next time too, maybe 1/4-1/2 turn. Could make a little difference.

[Steve RA]

Glad you have gotten as far as you have, please don't take up brain surgery !!

[rtp]

Going out again tomorrow with a good buddy who's been itching to try out my wife's M&P Shield, so I loaded up 300 - 3.3gr TG of the same bullet. THEN on Tuesday I have another good friend who just wants to go out and shoot so I'll be a busy loader this week! Time to put another order in actually! Torn between sticking with SnS or trying Bayou Bullets.

My indoor range doesn't allow for a chrono, so I can't answer that question. Trying to find some place that I can use one at, but so far the closest I know of is over 1.5 hours away. The issues I was having were at 3.4 and 3.6gr with the OAL at 1.118. Everything operated nicely at the shorter OAL. The coating on the SnS bullets are a bit different in so that I have to load a bit shorter for my barrel to accept the bullet. It's weird, but it is what it is. Going to try a SLIGHTLY tighter crimp next time too, maybe 1/4-1/2 turn. Could make a little difference.

Your call, but I wouldn't let my friends or wife shoot my reloads until I had at least 5k under the belt with a known good (and chrono'd) load.

Some people get into analysis paralysis, but I get the impression you're going other way. It's great you got your first rounds fired, but don't try changing too many variables at a time, especially when you have no chrono nor even accuracy data. What good is 'trying another bullet' when you can't quantify results so far, or have a favorite load with the SNS bullets for comparison?

It isn't likely to be the "coating being different so you have to load shorter" - the coatings are measured in thousandths, OAL is affected by the bullet profile/ogive, which comes from the molds used in making the bullet, not a coating.

Why would you try more crimp? Do you have a favorite load developed right now, before making changes? "Slightly" more crimp isn't really 1/2 turn, that's a significant change in most cases, especially if you're using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Note that 9mm do not need a 'crimp'; consider this 'de-flaring' and not crimping. Anything more, especially w/coated or plated bullets, and you're doing yourself a dis-service.

Suggestion - take a deep breath. Exhale any ideas of changing 27 things at once, until you're quite sure you have a decent load in the first place, and can tell us why it's a better load than the others.

Grab whatever projectile you're loading, a few fired but not yet resized cases, remove barrel and go here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.msg189131#msg189131

Find that combo's (changes with every different bullet wt/profile/mfgr + barrel) max OAL. If you load for multiple pistols in the same caliber, check them as well, take the lowest Max OAL and subtract 1/100th off it to be on the safe side. If for some unlikely reason all of your guns allow for over SAAMI max of 1.169", then use 1.15" for that combo.

Set up seating die appropriately.

For crimp...if using a Lee FCD, seat a bullet in a dummy (no powder/primer) round to specified OAL you came up with from above. Cycle to crimp station. Loosen die a bit, push ram fully up, tighten crimp die by hand until you feel it tough the case mouth. Drop the ram down, turn 1/4 turn, lock the die in place.

Take a fired case. Measure the case mouth wall thickness and multiply by 2. Measure the bullet in the flat/bearing area where it will contact the case mouth. Add these numbers together. You'll get somewhere between .377-.378" or so.

Make one dummy round. Measure at the case mouth - does the number match the measurement above? If it's smaller, loosen your crimp die slightly, and try again. If it's bigger, tighten your crimp die slightly (1/8th turn or less) and try again. Measurement good? Good, now forget about changing your crimp die for a long time.

Make 3-4 dummy rounds with this setup. Load mag with dummy rounds, and ensure they feed and cycle OK in each gun.

Good? Ok, now forget about changing your seating and crimp dies for a long time.

Now, without visions of changing OAL in the thousandths having 'real' impact on your shooting, load up rounds in .2gr increments from min to a step below max. Any time you change your powder drop amount, cycle a few charges by hand into a dump, scale plan, or similar, and throw them back in the hopper, and then throw 10 charges and weight them, divide by 10 - is your weight on, or needs adjustment? If you need adjustment, then adjust some, re-throw a few charges manually back into the hopper, then throw 10 again, repeat until happy.

You decide on how many you want to load. Label them including powder, charge, projectile weight/style, primer type/mgfr, OAL, brass type (for most of us = mixed range brass), lot # of powder and primers if you'd like..

Personally, at this stage, I wouldn't be inviting family and friends to be my testers or looking to throw mass amounts of lead down-range, but in comparing each load to the others, each with their own target (a target with multiple smaller bulls eyes is decent), using a rest if possible, and starting from the lowest charge.

Does it cycle reliably?

Does it 'feel' OK?

Is it accurate? (on the same target, same conditions - comparing you shooting at a 15yd center of mass target vs wife shooting a 5yd bullseye target = apples and oranges) How far apart is a 5-10 round group? Where does it compare to the others?

Does it make Power Factor (need a chrono) if you're playing in various gun games?

Write all of the above down in your reloading notebook, and only then move on to the next higher charge round.

If you don't have a chrono, you can somewhat go by 'feel' if you bring some typical target rounds with you (e.g. WWB, etc.) - not to try to 'match it' as powders have very different properties, burn rates, volatility, etc., but just to give yourself some reference for comparison...or pick up a Pro Chrono on sale for ~$100 or so.

If you're finding rounds not cycling well, look at your mags, and re-check OAL vs barrel fit, as well as you may have too low of a charge that simply isn't cycling your slide well enough. Note # of failures, and see if they lower as you go up in charges. If they do, it's likely too low of a charge causing the cycling problem. If they remain similar numbers (in the same gun), I'd look at if they may be too long for your mags or barrel.

Eventually you come up with a round that makes PF (if a requirement), and is accurate for you in your one gun. You may or may not see measurable closing and opening up of group sizes, but will possible see two loads (e.g. 3.4gr and 3.6gr - note this is not a suggestion for load data, just for example purposes!) that group pretty closely to each other. Do a sanity check in your other guns, if any.

Now you've narrowed things down sanely vs 'maybe I'll crimp more and randomly change OAL, maybe paint something purple, too!' ... you may or may not want to go back home, and load some up trying in .1gr increments, in this (example) case, I might try from 3.3-3.7gr in .1gr increments, and do one additional round of testing vs primary gun, then 'the others,' taking notes on each against each other, but also against your first 'good' loadings in that range of weights.

If you want to play with OAL after that point, well, knock yourself out, but don't expect magic differences from minor OAL changes in a 9mm, assuming you're not beyond max OAL for your chamber or mags, or so short you have feeding (or over-pressure! Shorter OAL w/same charge = higher pressure for pistol..) issues.

When you're happy with the best out of the above, check them in your other guns, and see if they're 'good enough' across all, or not. If not, try some that are just slightly below and above in charge, until you reach 'good enough for all of them' (unless you really want to load per pistol specific loads...I don't). You've now got your 'production load' for this caliber for this set of guns, this powder and projectile. Feel free at this point to make 500-1k of them if so desired. Now that you have a consistent, accurate, reproducible round with this combo...you can decide if you want to compare vs other projectiles...at which point, go back to square 1 (possibly some slight shortcut if same weight/type of bullet and you learned early on your lowest charges were nowhere in the ballpark, but YMMV, your call, etc.), work up the best load with that projectile, then compare apples to apples and see if there's any real difference in your shooting between the two.

Not rocket science, but not magic either. It's a great feeling to see your first rounds (successfully) go bang, but far too easy to go into super-anal mode believing you're going to find a 'magic' load and change too many things at once to give you any real idea of what actually worked, or didn't.

This became a long post, but had to do it, as you seemed to be on the verge of wandering down paths not so productive before you have a quantifiably single good round...

Good luck!

Edited March 18, 2014 by rtp

[RDA]

Going out again tomorrow with a good buddy who's been itching to try out my wife's M&P Shield, so I loaded up 300 - 3.3gr TG of the same bullet. THEN on Tuesday I have another good friend who just wants to go out and shoot so I'll be a busy loader this week! Time to put another order in actually! Torn between sticking with SnS or trying Bayou Bullets.

My indoor range doesn't allow for a chrono, so I can't answer that question. Trying to find some place that I can use one at, but so far the closest I know of is over 1.5 hours away. The issues I was having were at 3.4 and 3.6gr with the OAL at 1.118. Everything operated nicely at the shorter OAL. The coating on the SnS bullets are a bit different in so that I have to load a bit shorter for my barrel to accept the bullet. It's weird, but it is what it is. Going to try a SLIGHTLY tighter crimp next time too, maybe 1/4-1/2 turn. Could make a little difference.

Your call, but I wouldn't let my friends or wife shoot my reloads until I had at least 5k under the belt with a known good (and chrono'd) load.

(a lot snipped for brevity)

This became a long post, but had to do it, as you seemed to be on the verge of wandering down paths not so productive before you have a quantifiably single good round...

That was an impressive response. Just an FYI, there have been a number of threads and lots of help offered to the OP prior to this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189757

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190667

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190464

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190701

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190974

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191019

[rtp]

That was an impressive response. Just an FYI, there have been a number of threads and lots of help offered to the OP prior to this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189757

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190667

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190464

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190701

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190974

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191019

Well, at least he's asking questions, which is better than coming back with 'bad news.'

Hopefully he'll take a few deep breaths and learn what he can from the collective wisdom on BE; it sure helped me out when I started.

[RDA]

That was an impressive response. Just an FYI, there have been a number of threads and lots of help offered to the OP prior to this thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189757

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190667

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190464

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190701

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190974

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=191019

Well, at least he's asking questions, which is better than coming back with 'bad news.'

Hopefully he'll take a few deep breaths and learn what he can from the collective wisdom on BE; it sure helped me out when I started.

No doubt, you can learn a considerable amount on this forum, I spend far more time searching and reading than starting threads. Actually, I haven't started a thread yet, I have always been able to find answers and reams of information for anything I was interested in finding out more about.