ano Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Trouble with 38/357 case not aligning for sizing/decap die on xl650. Hi, I finally bought a XL650 press and I really love it, the case feeder and general function is awsome, but I have a problem, at first every say 1 out of 10-15 cases of 38 special would hit/jam and not tilt itself into the sizeing die, I have both redding competition, lee, and dillon sizing dies in 38special/357 magnum, and I tested them all, same result. Helping the case with my finger then helps it along, but you can see that its going in at an angle, the case IS fully seated in the shell holder wheel, Ive double and triple checked this. Ive also of course tightend the nut holding the die, not to hard, when it was at top, with a case in the die. I checked that its not happening every 5 stations or so, incase the wheel was machined wrong. I even tried "shimming" the entire press, higher up at right side, didnt really help I tried both tightening, and loosening the shell holder wheel, tightening didnt help, made it worse, looseing did help, and Im at maybe 1 out of every 40 now "jams", but you still see it going in at an angle into size/decap die. The other stations all seem to align fine, and the alignment of rotation, vs stations is also fine. it tilts "out" towards the feeder, its not a sideways rotational offsett. Now to the interesting part, I did buy another toolhead as I plan to size/decap on 1 toolhead, and do actual loading on the other. The problem where identical, so at least its not the toolhead machinging. at stations 2,3,4,5 when running, and testing without the alignment pins, I can enter them, as everything is center on holes in pin, vs press. this is not however true for station 1, if I remove pins, the toolhead moves say 1-1,5mm further in and stops at the end in the cast iron of the press, but also by doing so and "floating" it centers perfect on the shells in #1! So is there something weird about maching on both toolsheads? seems weird to me, am I doing something wrong? this was a factory setup 38 special, but I have double checked the settings, and it seems fine. Edited January 12, 2014 by ano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Welcome to the forums. If your casefeeder arm is not pushing the case properly, it could give you those results.Recheck the adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ano Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Welcome to the forums. If your casefeeder arm is not pushing the case properly, it could give you those results.Recheck the adjustment. Thanks for the welcome!, Ive been reading here unil now, not writeing.. Whats your definition of properly? Its beeing pushed all the way in, I tried removing the entire casefeeder arm-unit, then feeding it myself, and result is identical, the case is fully seated. should the case, be at an angle, when entering the die? until its guided by die by design of the unit on #1? I did google it, and site search, there are some refferences to a new 3rd party tool head solving it Edited January 12, 2014 by ano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ano Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 I tried a new shellplate holder, that turned out to help, the factory installed one had flawed machineing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstagn Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Mine does it every 40-50 rounds, adjusted, new shell plate (45acp), I just back off a hair and pull the handle gently down. Do not have a fix... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastshooter03 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 That sucks that Dillon hasn't fixed this problem yet. Now I have 4 - 650's and a few years ago I went through the same problem with the first one after dealing with it for years and I decided to act. Being a precision machinist I took the time and measured the shellplates and dieheads to see how close they were in terms of lining up the die directly over the case. I even put an indicator on the dies in the press to see how much movement was possible. What I found out was the dieheads varied a LOT but the shellplates were pretty much all the same. The dieheads did not have the same Bolt Hole Circle dimension as the shellplate. The diehead thread holes were centered inward compared to the shellplate. That's why the threads are oversize so you can move the die around. Using the instructions of running a case up into a loose die then tightening at the very best(furthest outward) die position allowed me to get to the shellplate BHC dim but that was it. No allowance for debri in the shellplate or maybe a diehead slot cut that might not be perfect(don't get me started on that). The main problem always seems to be in station 1 where you're trying to get into the sizing die mouth. So I made a batch of dieheads for myself that moved the die positions outward by just a little on all the stations and more on station 1. That helped out a bunch and I thought it would be an easy mod for Dillon to make(and posted such)-just a couple numbers in a program but obviously it must not be enough of a problem for them to care about. I do like the 650 now that everything problematic/annoying is modded up but I'm thinking the 1050 might have been a better choice in terms of accurate pistol loads. My latest problem is the diehead slot cuts in my 650s are not perpendicular to the shellplate and the threads in my dieheads are not as loose as Dillon's so the die angle can't be changed. Just a quick measurement with the calipers from the top of my diehead(which is parallel to the top of the slot step cut) to the shellplate gets me .007-.013" difference(depends on press) between station 2 and 4. I think I'm gonna have to recut my dieheads to be a little looser in the slot and have a matching taper. Shimming the shellplate holder just isn't going to work according to my Dad who tried. I wouldn't hesitate to get another 650 if the price was right--you just have to know how to maximize their performance. Good luck! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassaholic13 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Might be a stupid question. But, what dies are you using?I have all Lee carbide dies now, but in the past I had a 9mm Carbide die from Hornady. The Hornady die set gave me nothing but fits with the shells not properly inserting. I started eyeballing the entry of both the Lee and Hornady dies and noticed that the Lee dies have a different chamfer on the entry point than the Hornady. Do you have a friend who has a different die brand that you can try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ano Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Might be a stupid question. But, what dies are you using? I have all Lee carbide dies now, but in the past I had a 9mm Carbide die from Hornady. The Hornady die set gave me nothing but fits with the shells not properly inserting. I started eyeballing the entry of both the Lee and Hornady dies and noticed that the Lee dies have a different chamfer on the entry point than the Hornady. Do you have a friend who has a different die brand that you can try? I have redding competition, dillon AND lee in every caliber for pistol available.. . I dont really reload to save money, just because its fun, and I can make accuratte ammo. like I said, it was a faulty machined shellholder causing it, replaceing it has solved it, I reloaded close to 1000 rounds yesterday with nohickups. only trouble now is that redding competittion seating die, doesnt seat even a normal fp front bullet near deep enough. can I use the lockring, under the shellplate? that would help some. I actually plan to buy another few 650's, or 1050's to finish my loading room as I plan to be shooting a lot more now that I stopped boating, leaving me tons of free time and money right now my .38 special is a mix, redding sizing die, dillon powder, lee seating and crimp. my 9mm redding sizeing seems to be giving me a small edge on bottom of brass without tons of lube, so actually use the lee there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngeyes Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Welcome to the forums. If your casefeeder arm is not pushing the case properly, it could give you those results.Recheck the adjustment. Thanks for the welcome!, Ive been reading here unil now, not writeing.. Whats your definition of properly? Its beeing pushed all the way in, I tried removing the entire casefeeder arm-unit, then feeding it myself, and result is identical, the case is fully seated. should the case, be at an angle, when entering the die? until its guided by die by design of the unit on #1? I did google it, and site search, there are some refferences to a new 3rd party tool head solving it Sometimes the case is pushed in too hard and bounces back just enough to misalign. The arm should just reach the end of it's travel when the case is fully in. The case should not be at an angle. If you see it's angled, it's because it tipped after bouncing back and is teetering on the edge of the shell plate. Run a group thru and watch carefully to see if the case kicks back sometimes after the arm moves back. Run at normal speed to check this. Also check that the cam follower is properly lubed and is not causing the arm to stick. Edited January 16, 2014 by Youngeyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ano Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 Welcome to the forums. If your casefeeder arm is not pushing the case properly, it could give you those results.Recheck the adjustment. Thanks for the welcome!, Ive been reading here unil now, not writeing.. Whats your definition of properly? Its beeing pushed all the way in, I tried removing the entire casefeeder arm-unit, then feeding it myself, and result is identical, the case is fully seated. should the case, be at an angle, when entering the die? until its guided by die by design of the unit on #1? I did google it, and site search, there are some refferences to a new 3rd party tool head solving it Sometimes the case is pushed in too hard and bounces back just enough to misalign. The arm should just reach the end of it's travel when the case is fully in. The case should not be at an angle. If you see it's angled, it's because it tipped after bouncing back and is teetering on the edge of the shell plate. Run a group thru and watch carefully to see if the case kicks back sometimes after the arm moves back. Run at normal speed to check this. Also check that the cam follower is properly lubed and is not causing the arm to stick. It was just poorly machineing on shellplate, new shellplate solved it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katit Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 It's interesting that I have exactly same problem but I narrowed this down to specific brass. Just today I was loading and once in a while case wouldn't goi into the shellplate completely on my 650. Sometimes they did but then they were jammed in shellplate which resulted in hard priming and injection. To me it narrowed down to S&B brass which has thicker base. Should I ask for another shellplate or just discard all the S&B brass I see? Attached picture of S&B (left) with other case (right) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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