More questions about the Dillon RT1200

[SWThomas]

Ok I'm waiting for my Dillon stuff to load 223 to show up and I'm reading conflicting info about the RT1200...

My plan was to use a Dillon resizing die in station one and the RT1200 in station three to trim the brass. I'm hearing that doing this will have an adverse affect on the case neck because the trim die is also a sizing die and it will squeeze the neck back down to smaller than it was when it left the sizing die.

I've been told that what I should do is use a decapping die in station one, the RT1200 in station three to size/trim the brass, and then run an expander mandrel in station four to open the neck up to the proper diameter.

How do you employ your RT1200 and have you had any issues like this?

[rjacobs]

I run an expander mandrel after the trimmer. I got the one from 21st Century Shooting, but Sinclair and K&M also make them. The K&M one was reported by more than 1 person(on Snipers Hide) to not be so good and that after the fact they had very un-concentric(is that a word? non-concentric? worse concentricity?) necks. Lots of good reviews on the 21st Century Shooting one and I cant complain although I dont measure concentricity. I have the titanium nitride coated one for long life.

Ive only run 1000 pieces though and my buddy loaded them, but he didnt report any issues.

Edited December 14, 2013 by rjacobs

[SWThomas]

Thanks for the info. I'll check out 21st Century Shooting.

Anyone else?

[SWThomas]

rjacobs,

Did you get the expander mandrel or the turning arbor for the die?

[BullyDog]

I use a universal decapping die, then the RT1200 trimmer on the first step. The second step is to use a lee collet die to set neck tension and clean out flash hole.

[kimberacp]

can not the trimmer be set as not resize the case? I ve read here on the forum that it can be.

[SWThomas]

BullyDog,

Would you mind posting links to what you use? How's the neck tension when you're done? Do you crimp?

[rjacobs]

rjacobs,

Did you get the expander mandrel or the turning arbor for the die?

expander mandrel.

[Shadowrider]

O/P you are correct, the trimmer die will just size it back down. I use a decapping die in station 1, size and trim in station 3 or 4 (whichever it lands in). I then clean but if you are skipping that step you could add a regular sizing die to station 5 and just back it off a 1/4 turn so it only expands the neck. Why buy extra stuff?

Edited December 14, 2013 by Shadowrider

[rjacobs]

http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Expander_Mandrel.php

The titanium nitride one.

I got it for volume(100k+) processing and want it to last a long time so it was suggested to me to get the titanium nitride one.

If you arent looking at doing huge volume, the normal one is probably ok, but the price difference isnt that much to step up to the titanium nitride.

[StealthyBlagga]

I run an RCBS decapper/neck sizer in Station 1 before RT1200/ fulle length resize/trim in Station 3. Works well for me, and no risk of length change after sizing/trimming..

[SWThomas]

rjacobs,

Did you get the expander mandrel or the turning arbor for the die?

expander mandrel.

Isn't the turning arbor smaller? I thought the point in using a mandrel is to size the neck smaller than the bullet diameter...

[SWThomas]

O/P you are correct, the trimmer die will just size it back down. I use a decapping die in station 1, size and trim in station 3 or 4 (whichever it lands in). I then clean but if you are skipping that step you could add a regular sizing die to station 5 and just back it off a 1/4 turn so it only expands the neck. Why buy extra stuff?

That's what I was thinking. I'll have the Dillon sizer anyway so why buy something else. I can just use its expander ball to open the mouth back up. Heck, I can just throw it on the second tool head and do it after tumbling the lube off. That way I can use it to open the mouth and clean out the flash hole instead of buying another decapping die.

[Shadowrider]

O/P you are correct, the trimmer die will just size it back down. I use a decapping die in station 1, size and trim in station 3 or 4 (whichever it lands in). I then clean but if you are skipping that step you could add a regular sizing die to station 5 and just back it off a 1/4 turn so it only expands the neck. Why buy extra stuff?

That's what I was thinking. I'll have the Dillon sizer anyway so why buy something else. I can just use its expander ball to open the mouth back up. Heck, I can just throw it on the second tool head and do it after tumbling the lube off. That way I can use it to open the mouth and clean out the flash hole instead of buying another decapping die.

That's exactly what I do.

Edit: Almost forgot. I highly recommend the Dillon sizing die because it has the carbide expander button and it's a real short engagement length with the inside of the case neck. My Hornady die would drag hard enough to pull some of the shoulders back out so I went to Dillon. About 3K rounds later I'm not having any problems and needing to use mica of Imperial dry in the necks.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Shadowrider

[rjacobs]

rjacobs,

Did you get the expander mandrel or the turning arbor for the die?

expander mandrel.

Isn't the turning arbor smaller? I thought the point in using a mandrel is to size the neck smaller than the bullet diameter...

Yes, but a turning mandrel is for a neck turning device, NOT for expanding case mouths.

The case mouth expander is the right size in order to EXPAND the neck and give proper neck tension which is the end goal of the die. It SHOULD be slightly smaller than bullet diameter(.222 is what you are wanting). I am not at home until Monday night, but I can measure it and let you know what it measures to.

A turning arbor in that die wouldnt do anything and would be pointless IMO.

ETA: just found a thread on snipers hide that said neck turning mandrels are .001 smaller than bullet diameter and expander mandrels are .002 smaller. So you would have a bit more neck tension with the turning arbor than with the expander arbor. I honestly dont think a .001 difference will change how the bullet shoots especially when you think how many people crimp which puts a TON of neck tension on the bullet.

ETA2: still reading on this and a lot of guys are saying there is almost no difference between .001 and .002 neck tension, but most are saying they prefer the .002 neck tension. The mandrels are cheap enough might grab both and experiment.

Edited December 15, 2013 by rjacobs

[BullyDog]

BullyDog,

Would you mind posting links to what you use? How's the neck tension when you're done? Do you crimp?

I currently use a Dillon 1050 to trim and size with.

Station 1 I used a Dillon universal decapping die

Station 2 swage

Station 6 trim with Dillon rt1200 trimmer

Next remove lube in tumbler

Next when I go to reload the bullets, setup a lee collet die in station one and adjust mandrel and neck tension. This also removes or cleans out the flash hole that might have stuck media in it.

Here is YouTube video of some guy showing a lee collet die

[purecharger]

I think I keep it simpler than most people on here. I wait until I have a 2k+ cases to trim and then I setup a toolhead on my 1050 with just the trimmer die installed in the station where you normally seat the bullet. Having it in that station is best for my setup since I have room to the left side for the vacuum hose. After everything is trimmed I switch back to my normal loading toolhead and start cranking.

[SWThomas]

rjacobs,

Did you get the expander mandrel or the turning arbor for the die?

expander mandrel.

Isn't the turning arbor smaller? I thought the point in using a mandrel is to size the neck smaller than the bullet diameter...

Yes, but a turning mandrel is for a neck turning device, NOT for expanding case mouths.

The case mouth expander is the right size in order to EXPAND the neck and give proper neck tension which is the end goal of the die. It SHOULD be slightly smaller than bullet diameter(.222 is what you are wanting). I am not at home until Monday night, but I can measure it and let you know what it measures to.

A turning arbor in that die wouldnt do anything and would be pointless IMO.

ETA: just found a thread on snipers hide that said neck turning mandrels are .001 smaller than bullet diameter and expander mandrels are .002 smaller. So you would have a bit more neck tension with the turning arbor than with the expander arbor. I honestly dont think a .001 difference will change how the bullet shoots especially when you think how many people crimp which puts a TON of neck tension on the bullet.

ETA2: still reading on this and a lot of guys are saying there is almost no difference between .001 and .002 neck tension, but most are saying they prefer the .002 neck tension. The mandrels are cheap enough might grab both and experiment.

I went with the die and the titanium mandrel. I'm sure that'll resolve my concerns. Thanks again for the advice!

ETA: Out of curiosity, I called them about the differences between the expander mandrel and the turning arbor. He said the expander mandrel's diameters is 0.2235 and the turning arbor's diameter is 0.222. I asked him if the turning arbor would work in their expander die and he said yes. He added that the expander mandrel would not work in a neck turner, but yes the arbor would work in their die. So I had them switch the expander mandrel out with one of their Ti turning arbors.

Edited December 17, 2013 by SWThomas

[Boxerglocker]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186174

[rjacobs]

I went with the die and the titanium mandrel. I'm sure that'll resolve my concerns. Thanks again for the advice!

ETA: Out of curiosity, I called them about the differences between the expander mandrel and the turning arbor. He said the expander mandrel's diameters is 0.2235 and the turning arbor's diameter is 0.222. I asked him if the turning arbor would work in their expander die and he said yes. He added that the expander mandrel would not work in a neck turner, but yes the arbor would work in their die. So I had them switch the expander mandrel out with one of their Ti turning arbors.

Good call. .002 neck tension is what you want, not .001. Some guys on the accurate shooter forum(I think thats where I read it) are running .005 neck tension. That seems pretty loose to me. So .0025 is what you will get with the 21st century expanding arbor. Good to know.

Edited December 17, 2013 by rjacobs

[SWThomas]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186174

WHAT!?! That's what I initially though when I first decided to get this set up. It wasn't until I started asking questions that I found out people were doing it all kinds of different ways.

What would be the disadvantage in doing it that way? I can't see any....

Edited December 17, 2013 by SWThomas

[Boxerglocker]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186174

WHAT!?! That's what I initially though when I first decided to get this set up. It wasn't until I started asking questions that I found out people were doing it all kinds of different ways.

What would be the disadvantage in doing it that way? I can't see any....

There aren't any IMHO and I have pictures of the targets to prove it.

[rjacobs]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186174

WHAT!?! That's what I initially though when I first decided to get this set up. It wasn't until I started asking questions that I found out people were doing it all kinds of different ways.

What would be the disadvantage in doing it that way? I can't see any....

Ive processed a ton of brass using a FL die FIRST to both size and de-cap, its fine, nothing wrong with it.

The biggest issue is the RT1200 die has the tight neck so you need the neck expander at a minimum after it.

Your setup will be just fine IMO, but if you wanted you COULD run the full length sizer with expander first as your means to punch primers, nothing at all wrong with that.

The only thing doing that AND expanding the mouth after trimming(which again IMO is required with the RT1200 dies) is that you are potentially working the brass at the case mouth double what you need to and could cause pre-mature split necks or what not.

[roxfo]

Ive processed a ton of brass using a FL die FIRST to both size and de-cap, its fine, nothing wrong with it.

The biggest issue is the RT1200 die has the tight neck so you need the neck expander at a minimum after it.

Your setup will be just fine IMO, but if you wanted you COULD run the full length sizer with expander first as your means to punch primers, nothing at all wrong with that.

The only thing doing that AND expanding the mouth after trimming(which again IMO is required with the RT1200 dies) is that you are potentially working the brass at the case mouth double what you need to and could cause pre-mature split necks or what not.

It is often recommended in accuracy circles not to reduce the neck diameter by more than 0.005" in a single step, otherwise the neck reduces by more than you intend and runout can be introduced. Consequently I run a bushing neck die before the RT1200 to do the first 0.004 or 0.005 of neck-down (Redding comp neck die with TIN bushing). The Dillon trim die then does the body, shoulder and final few thousandths of neck sizing, but it still requires an expander afterwards due to the tight neck dimensions of the Dillon die. A new trim die from CH4D is headed my way today. The CH4D dies are compatible with the RT1200 but have more normal neck dimensions. I still plan to expand a little, but by 0.001 or 0.002, rather than 0.004 or 0.005. Curious if anyone else has experience of these dies. Also, while I understand reasons to neck down in two steps, I'm not sure why to FL size twice.

[SWThomas]

I wish there was only one way to do this. I'm getting confused with all these different methods. I guess I'll just do some trial and error with a few cases and see how it goes.