Lee Seating Die Question

[Blankenhole]

Just a quick question. I have a 9mm Lee die set in a LNL AP and I have loaded around 1200 rounds with little to no problems at all. Last week I went out to work on a load and after a few rounds went through I noticed that some of them seemed off, and after measuring OAL indeed there was some inconsistencies. After starting completely over (cleaning, checking to see if anything is loose, etc.) I went with one round at a time and measured a few and they seemed to be within a tolerable range so then I went back to the usual and loaded 5-6 at a time to see what I would get. With a goal OAL at this time of 1.07 I got the following:

1 @ 1.056

2 @ 1.065

1 @ 1.068

1 @ 1.072

1 @ 1.080

At this point I was obviously frustrated and went through started everything over again, making sure everything was tight again, setting up all the dies again etc. Still having problems staying consistent. I tried different bullet types thinking the stem would be the issue. Tried some RN and FP and it still was inconsistent. The only other Lee die set I have is a 45acp set and I didn't have any more empty cases lying around or I would have looked to see if I had similar results.

In the end, with a gift certificate to cabelas that I got in the mail I caved and bought a Hornady die set and it works absolutely flawlessly so far, which also deepens my frustrations with my Lee set and brings me to the question, does anybody have any ideas as to what is going on? I never had any other real problems with the Lee dies besides that, and I still use the FCD. Any insight would be much appreciated

Ben

[Steve RA]

Maybe some sort of "crud" up in the die ???

[Sarge]

Time to beat this poor dead horse again.

I doubt anything is "wrong" with your dies as LEE are as good as anything out there. Even though you say the Hornady dies are flawless I still don't think dies are the problem.

First- Are you using the same headstamp or are you using mixed brass? Mixed headstamps can, will,and do make your oal's vary to the degree you listed. Running all the same headstamp will get you very close to the same oal every stroke of the press which in turn will give you the best accuracy out of a batch, the lowest SD, and the most consistent PF.

Second- If you are using a progressive press with a shell plate on it you have to keep the shell plate full to get the true oal readings. You say you get good results when you do everything one at a time. That's because the tilt of the shell plate is the same every time. When the shell plate is full the load is spread more evenly when you pull the handle and the plate tilts less, if at all. Your readings seem to indicate that your loads get longer with each stroke? That's because the plate tilts less each time until full. As an example, when I am setting up my oal I realize if I only have one round on the plate that number is going to be less than my target oal. Once the plate is full things settle in and then I start dialing in the oal exactly. When I sit down to load I run 5-6 rounds through the press and set those rounds aside. Then I start confirming oal and fine tune as needed. I am assuming the LNL works the same as my 650 in these regards.

Third- Many newer loaders try to figure too many things out while running the press. This causes the handle to not be pulled the same every time, short stroking, going real slow and deliberate, then speeding up, then stopping to remove rounds and check, etc.. All these lead to inconsistency with the machine. After getting the plate full, run 20 rounds through the press at what I like to call, "combat speed", in other words normal, uninterrupted, smooth pace. Then measure those twenty rounds and see what you get.

Fourth- Those rounds seem kind of short. Make sure you are not compressing loads. If you are compressing powder your rounds can "grow" after you load them.

Judging from the numbers you posted I think you are running mix headstamp brass on a partially full shell plate at a sporadic rate.

But then again, your die could just be dirty like Steve said.

[Steve RA]

I'd think the overall length would be greater with just one round in the shell plate and get shorter as the plate fills up, but, what do I know ??

[Sarge]

Mine is always short on my 650? I have my sizer just kissing the plate maybe that has something to do with it.

[Steve RA]

Only reason I thought that is that if we assume the die comes to the same place - in relation to frame - and there is only one case in the shell plate it seems as though when the shell plate tips from the pressure in that one spot the case would be lower than normal which would lead to a longer OAL on that cartridge. As the shell plate fills up the shell plate would remain more level - less tilt - and the OAL would then be less.

Anyway, that is my theory !

[Blankenhole]

Thank you both for the responses. Sorry to keep dragging this horse through the dirt and mud, did some searching and saw very similar problems without any real solid conclusions or answers.

Sarge I agree with you I didn't think anything was mechanically "wrong" with the dies either if you will, I haven't had any problems with these dies or the 45acp dies before.

1. I do run mixed brass and I have started to noticed the differences in OAL with one headstamp to another, but at the same time nothing as varied as what I was getting. I have been debating sorting out all my brass (especially Federal) and loading by headstamp and I think you have convinced me.

2. When running one at a time the OAL did not get longer with each stroke, my OCD kicked in and I felt like I needed to put them in numerical order I guess .

When I saw them all over the place I immediately thought what Steve said and cleaned the die pretty thoroughly thinking it might have built up some brass shavings or any other gunk, it did seem pretty clean though.

As far as the press goes with the plate tilting, I tested this out with the current die setup and putting a single round into the shell plate compared to five there is about a 1-2 thousandths of a difference in either direction. That was with the shellplate snug with the lock washer on, which is how I have had it for a while now.

3. This. I have caught myself doing this on more than one occasion. I think I will do what you described. So far I usually only go about 10 rounds in and then see where they are at. I might be getting a little ahead of myself when I stop at 10 instead of the 20 that you are doing.

4. I have been paying attention to this as well after lurking around here and seeing people posting about it. The XTP's in my XDM prefer to be much shorter from what I have experienced than many other bullets I have tried.

Thank you both very much for the responses. Sorry again for another post such as this. I am going to go out to the garage hopefully later tonight after I watch the Bengals play and see what I see, making break down the die again and make sure the stem and die body are clean.

Ben

Edited November 10, 2013 by Blankenhole

[Sarge]

Don't sweat it. Nobody on these forums wants to see anybody struggle with a problem. I just happened to pipe up this time. I think if you sort out 25-30 pieces of the same headstamp and just load them up without stopping you will see a marked improvement. Let us know how it goes.

[at_liberty]

Just a quick question. I have a 9mm Lee die set in a LNL AP and I have loaded around 1200 rounds with little to no problems at all. Last week I went out to work on a load and after a few rounds went through I noticed that some of them seemed off, and after measuring OAL indeed there was some inconsistencies. After starting completely over (cleaning, checking to see if anything is loose, etc.) I went with one round at a time and measured a few and they seemed to be within a tolerable range so then I went back to the usual and loaded 5-6 at a time to see what I would get. With a goal OAL at this time of 1.07 I got the following:

1 @ 1.056

2 @ 1.065

1 @ 1.068

1 @ 1.072

1 @ 1.080

At this point I was obviously frustrated and went through started everything over again, making sure everything was tight again, setting up all the dies again etc. Still having problems staying consistent. I tried different bullet types thinking the stem would be the issue. Tried some RN and FP and it still was inconsistent. The only other Lee die set I have is a 45acp set and I didn't have any more empty cases lying around or I would have looked to see if I had similar results.

In the end, with a gift certificate to cabelas that I got in the mail I caved and bought a Hornady die set and it works absolutely flawlessly so far, which also deepens my frustrations with my Lee set and brings me to the question, does anybody have any ideas as to what is going on? I never had any other real problems with the Lee dies besides that, and I still use the FCD. Any insight would be much appreciated

Ben

I wondered if the seating insert shape was right for the bullet. There are concave inserts and flat inserts. If a bullet nose is not rounded there can be some variance with a concave seating insert. Some bullets can seat a little crooked also.

[Blankenhole]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys yet, been busier than expected.

I broke down the die to clean it again and put it back, the stem looked fine. at_liberty it is a concave stem for RN type bullets but I have used it before without any major issues besides the random one where I may have put it in at an angle. Initially I thought it was not liking the XTP's at first then switched to the Sierra FMJ and still had problems.

I am going to go home today, get the heater in the garage, sort the brass like Sarge suggested, then give it another go with the Lee seating die.

[98sr20ve]

1 @ 1.056

2 @ 1.065

1 @ 1.068

1 @ 1.072

1 @ 1.080

Ben

The stem was simply taking a "set". The adjust has very course threads and will need to work it's way home to be perfectly consistent. So I will set it and measure each as they get seated. I just tighten the adjuster a little bit at a time. Once it's set you can forget about it. I also put a little mark on the top of the adjust so I have a visual reference of where I started and where I ended up and how far I actually turned it.

Also, EVERY LEE Stem gets put in a drill and polished on the inside with some very fine sandpaper. Helps the bullets slide into place.

Edited November 14, 2013 by 98sr20ve

[Blankenhole]

Well I got the heater in the garage, sorted the headstamp, reset my press, and got a load together. I did as Sarge suggested and ran 20 rounds after it was setup to a goal oal of ~1.125. The results were 18 @ ~1.133 an 2 @ ~1.126. So that is much better than what I was getting before and I could definitely take that compared to the previous groupings. I could dial it in a bit more I think too.

98, I marked mine in quarters for a visual reference for the most part. That is a good idea as well, I think it would help a lot with the Sierra bullets I have and some Acme bullets.

When I get a bit more time out there tomorrow I will take a closer look.

Thank you all for the advice by the way.

Ben