Production grip work/swaps?

[kdj]

I now have my CZ-75B, and after a little magic from Angus, it seems like I might even be able to occationally hit something with it

Now I have a question about grips. I don't like the orgininal plastic. I've looked at the rule for grip "modification" in the USPSA rule book:

"Aftermarket <blah blah> match profile <blah> grip tape <blah>"

and I'm still a little confused.

I understand that I could put on grip tape. Could I legally put on enough grip tape that I could, say, build a palm swell?

More seriously, I understand that the hogue grips with finger groves are illegal. What about, say,

http://www.gunaccessories.com/ExcaliburWoo...woodgripscz.asp

or

http://www.imageseek.com/hakan/gallery/cz75/Cimg8085

or

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/576901

These seem more or less "matching the original profile" depending on how much flexibility there is in the match. None of them are identical (I usually work in nanometers ) but none of them are radically different.

I'm sure the rule is perfectly clear if one already understands its meaning but there's some confusion to me and I don't want to do something that isn't allowed! I also see that the US allows rubber sleeves but the rest of the world doesn't. Are rubber sleeves with finger groves still rubber sleeves.

And I know I could shoot something other than Production and not have to worry about things like this but that's not the aim of this particular exercise

And I did try to search for this topic before posting but I didn't find the answer I was looking for. Either an answer or better instruction in using search key words would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Kevin

[Matthew_Mink]

Kevin, take a look at the factory wood grips, if you know anybody with a set. I highly prefer those over the stock plastic ones. For some reason the wood grips are slightly contoured, and fit my hand perfectly. They feel really good, and wouldn't be a modification, since they are factory parts.

[Vince Pinto]

I understand that I could put on grip tape. Could I legally put on enough grip tape that I could, say, build a palm swell?

Kevin, the grips you reference would certainly be acceptable for IPSC Production Division, and I doubt you'll have a problem with the USPSA version, but contact John Amidon if you want an official USPSA ruling.

The concept behind the "match the profile" wording is to enable competitors to change the texture and material of the grips (e.g. plastic to rubber or wood), but not to noticeably change the shape of the grips. This would also apply to the application of grip tape, however the following rule revision is on my "To Do" list:

Draft IPSC 20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of tape (not exceeding 2mm in depth) on grips is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

I think the spirit and intent of the rule is clear, but the above would eliminate any doubt.

Edited November 16, 2004 by Vince Pinto

[EricW]

the application of a single layer of tape on grips is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

This is gonna get messy...for me. My glock grips overlap and thus could be considered double layered. Is there another way to word it? Such as say, a max. thickness of say 1.5 mm / 0.060" - or whatever dimension would cover all of the existing adhesive products, but still exclude my arch-nemisis competitor: the Hogue sock (the grip tape of the Infidel)

[Vince Pinto]

Eric,

Fair enough, but should we consider a whole number like 2mm, because it's a lot easier to measure?

(My original post above edited accordingly)

[EricW]

Done. Or call it 0.080" in American units. What's with that metric system anyway?

Thanks Vince!

(And that boys and girls is how legislation and sausage gets made. Down with the grip sock! Up with shameless self promotion!)

[Vince Pinto]

What's with that metric system anyway?

You ain't seen nuttin' yet - just wait until we introduce Metric Time: 100 minutes per hour, 10 hours a day, 10 days a week, 10 months a year.

This means that your birthdate changes from 22 October to 10 Dexatober ......... BWA HA HA!

[Carlos]

"QUOTE (EricW @ Nov 16 2004, 05:39 PM)

What's with that metric system anyway?

Vince: You ain't seen nuttin' yet - just wait until we introduce Metric Time: 100 minutes per hour, 10 hours a day, 10 days a week, 10 months a year.

Aw, come on Vince! I seem to recall that a year or two back, NASA made a slight oopsie-boo-boo with one of thier Mars probe missions (to the tune of only a few million dollars) because they could not get the English/metric conversion straight - and you expect US to get it right?!?!!

Remember your roots man! Go English system; beat metric! (repeat 10 times when temptation arrises). By the way, the NASA guys who screwed up WERE rocket scientists.

[Pierruiggi]

You ain't seen nuttin' yet - just wait until we introduce Metric Time: 100 minutes per hour, 10 hours a day, 10 days a week, 10 months a year.

As long as you keep 5 of those work days and 5 weekends, AND keep the 1 month vacation I'm fine with it...

Although, if the day has 10 hours... no more 8 hours of work...

Note: No, I'm not as lazy as I sound.

Note 2: Ok, yes, I am.

[D.Hayden]

Kevin... sorry for the drift... When you're using you're CZ, can I borrow you're Open gun?

You ain't seen nuttin' yet - just wait until we introduce Metric Time

The French tried metric time in the a few hundred years ago..

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Metric%20time

[Can't resist mode]

It worked like most other French inventions...

[/Can't resist mode]

[kdj]

I'm bi-lingual: I speak English and American, and Imperial and Metric, so the thread drift is fine with me

Back to the topic as it was originally split:

I'm getting clearer but still have a few questions around the gray area.

What about Pachmayr Sure-Grip® Panels? (I'd think Yes)

What about Pachmayr Signature Grips without finger grooves? (I'd think Yes since they're grips plus a rubber sleeve across the front or functionally equivalent there to)

What about Pachmayr Signature Grips with Finger grooves? (I'd say No since they alter the profile significantly)

Am I still on track?

Thanks,

Kevin

P.S. BerKim: Sure, for the few seconds I'm on the CoF with the CZ (well, make that significant fractions of minutes in my case) you are welcome to borrow the Open Gun

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Hey! those excalibur rosewood grips look really nice. Santa might just bring us a CZ75 for christmas this year. Have you written an email to the proper rule nazi at USPSA yet concerning aftermarket grips?

[Vince Pinto]

Kevin,

As far as IPSC Production Division is concerned, I agree with your assessment that the Pachmayr Sure-Grip® and "standard" Signature Grip series are acceptable, but not the ones with the finger grooves.

[Vince Pinto]

.... the proper rule nazi at USPSA ...

Not nice. John Amidon works his ass off for USPSA, and he deserves your respect.

[D.Hayden]

This is really a "Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" rules right? Like the Production holster definition.

I'd think the Signature grips (with the front strap sleeve), would violate the rule. Since they are building up the grip? I'm just looking at the picture, haven't seen them.

But I'd like to replace the grips on my Berreta, so this is very interesting to me...

[kdj]

That's where I'm confused since rubber side panels are allowed, a full rubber sleeve is allowed (in the US) and grip tape (including rubber tape?) is allowed. The signature looks like rubber panels with permanently attached rubber tape from a functional point of view, so it's not violating the spirit of the rule but I wasn't sure about the letter of the rule.

Asking John would be definitive for the US, but I'm appreciating the help in clarifying the question before bothering him since I'm sure crisp clear questions make his life easier than the vague ramblings I start off with - and I'd prefer not to upset people with ultimate power . We can upset Vince with less concern since he's only responsible for that small part of the world that isn't the US

(And in case the tongue in cheek wasn't clear enough, I greatly respect people with the intestinatudinal fortitude to do the kind of jobs John and Vince do. They have to put up with a host of silly questions and grumblings when we don't like the answer but if somebody didn't do it, we'd only have an Open division and I'm sure there's some problem with that )

Kevin

[Vince Pinto]

Kevin,

Thanks for the kind words.

I can only speak to IPSC Production Division, but the thinking behind IPSC PD rules is that changing side panels to, say, rubber, or adding "skateboard" tape to grips is entirely about safety, because we realise that there are some sweaty palms out there.

However IPSC draws the line at (and prohibits) slip-on grips, because they significantly change the grip angle and/or indexing of the gun, and that goes against IPSC's vision of Production Division. This is also why we now need to specific the depth of grip tape, in order to officially prevent people creating palm swells and the like.