rmills Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I beg to differ that both organizations handle rules and changes to them in the same manner....Never have I seen a MD, or CRO or anyone else interpret the rules at a USPSA match...they are always quoting the rule book and it is there for all to see...the other group will gladly interpret on the fly when it suits their purpose and time constraints.. been there, seen that ...more than a few times with both organizations... Thats' not what I saw at the Area 5 in 1997 and the Area 8 in 1998. My last "Big Matches" due to no continuity in the rules or their applications. Rules definitions changed day to day depending on whether one was on the Super Squad or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I shot Area 5 in 1997. What rule discrepencies did you observe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I would also add that I have been witness to the rules being more stringent when observing the SS than the regular shooters....not the other way round... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I shot Area 5 in 1997. What rule discrepencies did you observe? One thing that was observed was a member in our squad shooting an SVI with a "Hybrid" rib extending thru the slide. Shooter's connection had attempted to get Amidon's approval during that time to make the setup legal for Limited. He had ruled it was not. At the chronograph, the modification was pointed out and the individual should have been moved to Open class. He was not because the chronograph operators stated that they were not aware of the rule. In regards to the Super Squad, there was a stage that stated one had to hold a window open with one hand while shooting with another. We had asked if we could use another part of our body (head, shoulder, etc.) to hold it open and were told no. On the next day we observed some super shooters using their head. Same RO's. When asked, we were given no reasons by the RO's why they had allowed this. When we asked for a re-shot, we were told "No". At the Area 8 a COF stated that all rounds had to pass between the "donkey's" legs. One shooter bypassed the legs and shot below the neck. Once a penalty was applied he argued that he did not receive a competitive advantage (we felt he did because while shooting under the neck one did not have to go down as far) and the RO removed the penalty. This non-advantage took approx. 1 second off of his time, an eternity on a speed shoot. When others asked if they could do the same, they were told "no" as he had made a mistake and recieved "No competitive advantage". When the MD was asked about it, he agreed with the RO. Everyone who had shot the stage before should have been given a re-shoot and those after should have been allowed to do the same. One of the big issues with USPSA is how penalties are applied. Too often we heard "Well, he did not really gain an advantage so we won't penalize him". This displays issues with USPSA rules and their subjectivity. The subjectivity card can be played in all sports. I'm finished in this topic as there is no reason to keep defending IDPA from IDPA bashers in this forum. IDPA needs no defense. It is what it is. If you don't like it, play elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Duane-T... Perhaps memory *is* the second thing to go! My apologies for misquoting you. Still and all, I'll stand by the sentiments. mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 On the same topic, geeeeez, you guys can *remember* 1997? mb-again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 On the same topic, geeeeez, you guys can *remember* 1997? Well, I have an advantage. Since I have no real life, I have plenty of empty spaces in my noggin to file away unimportant trivia. It rained like a mo-fo on Sunday at the 97 Area 5. I think I saw a couple of ROs building an ark from target stands and sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 On the same topic, geeeeez, you guys can *remember* 1997? Well, I have an advantage. Since I have no real life, I have plenty of empty spaces in my noggin to file away unimportant trivia. It rained like a mo-fo on Sunday at the 97 Area 5. I think I saw a couple of ROs building an ark from target stands and sticks. On Saturday afternoon, the water was up to our ankles on the "Aliens" and "Cheese" stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Air gunning thread is CLOSED. maybe this one should be too???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 This thread is gong to get closed soon as it has turned into our sport is better than yours. I am not so sure about that, but USPSA does a much better job of training RO than IDPA does for SO. USPSA training was a 2 day class taught by one of just a few trainers. Perry put on an excelent training class. They do this to ensure everyone plays by the same rules and uses them in the same way. Then I went to my SO training for IDPA. It was a 4 hour class that started out with a video. The instructor stated he had to show the video, but ignore most of what it states and shows because it is not accurate according to the LGB. After going through the rule book he gave us a short test. In it he asked us to look up rules for specific situations. In some cases we found two or three for a given issue that didn't agree with each other. For our USPSA test, there was only one rule that applied. Now I have just received my card to be a SOI. It came with a letter that stated there was no formal IDPA training guidline. Just use the LGB as a guide. Funny it didn't include the ruling RMILL has quoted and stated was sent out. I have been the MD for 3 years and I have yet to receive anything other than a bill from IDPA HQ and applications for new members. As far as the comment about the AIr-Gunning rule. RMILL, I believe you were told this is a rule by Ken and Bill at nationals. The problem is, you keep going back to the rule book to justify it. It is not a rule in the current rule book. Why not just say Bill and Ken said it was a rule, so I will follow what they told us. This also explains why MOST of us don't agree with you when you say it is in the book. Las comment is on rules being made up on the fly. I shot the nationals in i think 2002. I was called for a procedural on a stage where you had to back while waiting for a target to appear from either the right or left of a wall. I was told by the SO that I stopped moving and shot too fast for him to give me a warning. The rule book states you must give the shooter a warning. I was upset because I didn't agree I stopped. I also had never heard of getting a penalty because I was too fast. Later I learned a member of the super squad had received the same penalty. It was an enlightening 2 days. We realized that the rules are just a guidline. This applied to equipment also. I saw plenty of mag pouches that were not legal. We also realized our local clubs put on just as good a state match for much less money than Nationals. I have not been back yet. Sorry, I got stuck in rant mode, but this topic has realy wondered. Daryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 It does indeed look like the origianl question has been answered. And, this thread has turned into "something else". CLOSED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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