Surprise

[Vince Pinto]

The point is to have steel contrasting with different berms colour. We have berms covered with grass, berms of brown ground, berms of reddish ground and so on. By painting steel of different colours throughout the match we can ensure maximum target contrast with background. 

Yeah, right. As they say in Texas "That dawg won't hunt".

Again, you should really consider the above suggested change to rule 4.1.2, because as it is it doesn't reflect what you are advocating.

You have misinterpreted the word "single color" to mean it applies to each metal target seperately, in and of itself (e.g. one can be all blue, one can be all red etc.). If that were the case then, in the preceeding rule, only one paper target needs to be "of a typical cardboard color".

However as the word "targets" (plural) is used in the subject rules, it means "all of them" must be painted a single (common) colour.

I'm kinda limited when it comes to mind resources, I can only debate one argument at time. 

Take your time, but I do expect an answer from you about my Appeal to Arbitration, sooner or later ........ tick, tock, tick, tock.

[Skywalker]

Vince,

I'm not that much proficient with foreign humor to understand the texan saying, sorry, please explain it to me.

You have misinterpreted the word "single color" to mean it applies to each metal target seperately, in and of itself (e.g. one can be all blue, one can be all red etc).

Maybe, but you're "misinterpreting" it too by saying that it shall be intended as all steel within the same match.

If that were the case then, in the preceeding rule, only one paper target needs to be "of a typical cardboard color".

Sorry again Vince, but here I don't follow you anymore: the fact that the cardboard color is worldwide used for scoring paper targets, is the clear demonstration that the quoted rules have to be taken by the word: if ALL IPSC matches worldwide have to have the same colour for scoring paper targets, then equally, all metal scoring targets have to be painted the same color, worldwide, only thing is this color is not specified but adviced, as opposed to the paper targets case.

If this is not (and it isn't) the case, I have already stated that the rule needs rewriting, because at present you're suggesting to interpret 4.2.1.1 and 4.1.2.2 differently.

To me "targets in all IPSC matches" means exactly what is written, not "all targets in an IPSC match".

BTW, I too am waiting for an answer both on the stage approval upon sanctioning the match and here...

[Vince Pinto]

I'm not that much proficient with foreign humor to understand the texan saying, sorry, please explain it to me.

The expression "That dawg (dog) won't hunt" means "that won't work (as an excuse or explanation)".

Maybe, but you're "misinterpreting" it too by saying that it shall be intended as all steel within the same match.

I wrote it. Your move.

if ALL IPSC matches worldwide have to have the same colour for scoring paper targets, then equally, all metal scoring targets have to be painted the same color, worldwide <snip>

With paper targets we specify the colour. With metal targets we don't - we just make a recommendation.

BTW, I too am waiting for an answer both on the stage approval upon sanctioning the match and here...

In my last post on the other thread, I said "Anyway guys, I'm done here" and, guess what? I done here too ......

Ciao.

[Skywalker]

Now let's come to your appeal to the Arb. Com.

having a red scoring target put me at a disadvantage, and I therefore request a reshoot or that the stage be withdrawn from the match?

First of all, let me say that this would be a very generic appeal. Shall I ever write an appeal, I'd do it quoting all relevant rules, but we're friendly discussing an hypotetical case, thus let's consider it:

having a red scoring target put me at a disadvantage, and I therefore request a reshoot

Well, there is no rule that says if you're at disadvantage against other shooters you have to be granted a reshoot.

Likewise, if a match has all steel painted yellow, the Limited/Standard shooters with yellow fiber optic insert could demand the same, being at disadvantage against those with red or green fiber optic insert, and I don't think they have any ground for asking this.

having a red scoring target put me at a disadvantage, and I therefore request a reshoot or that the stage be withdrawn from the match?

To withdraw a stage from the match it shall be non-compliant with the rulebook.

If we can determine that according to rules 4.1.2 and 4.1.2.2 the stage is illegal (precisely what we're debating), then I'd withdraw it from the match.

[shred]

I would claim that if the stage is as-drawn, anybody that didn't draw yellow had an advantage since it was visible and shootable sooner than the others.

[Flexmoney]

Wow...this one took off.

My take (fwiw):

Vince...your arb is denied. (But, only on the grounds in which you presented it. I don't care what color you sight is that you choose.)

Sky, you stage is not approved. One, because those that are color blind cannot know which target is which. And, also, as shred said...the cof changes be a number of feet (meters) depending on which die is cast.

I agree with Vince's take on the rules here.

(Vinnie, start that thread on purist vs. shooting challenges...or people are gonna think we are in league)

[Vince Pinto]

Vince...your arb is denied.  (But, only on the grounds in which you presented it.  I don't care what color you sight is that you choose.)

But, Mr. Arbitration Committee Chairman, everybody knows that competitors using red dot scopes make up roughly 50% of the field at all major matches, so the match organiser's decision to use multi coloured metal targets is not only flawed, it's inconsiderate and causes ill-will. In fact, Sir, this Arbitration is effectively a "class action" appeal.

I therefore not only ask you to uphold my appeal, I ask that you also urge IPSC to remind all match organisers worldwide that they should not complicate matters and henceforth use metal targets painted white. The aggravation, Sir, is simply not worth it.

Your humble and obedient Range Lawyer,

Hugh Jarse.

[Flexmoney]

But, Mr. Arbitration Committee Chairman...so the match organiser's decision to use multi coloured metal targets...

Hugh,

You didn't base your arb on the use of multi-colored targets.

"...how would you...respond if I filed an appeal to Arbitration that having a red scoring target put me at a disadvantage, and I therefore request a reshoot or that the stage be withdrawn from the match?"

You Range Master should have help you write up your arb a little better than that.

[Skywalker]

I would claim that if the stage is as-drawn, anybody that didn't draw yellow had an advantage since it was visible and shootable sooner than the others.

Shred, Flex,

I must confess I don't understand your point.

OK, if you drew red, you could have shot the yellow popper while approaching the port, but then?

You're still compelled to do the whole swing across targets upon reaching the port, so I don't see any advantage here.

Moreover, if the fact that any of the targets can be engaged sooner or differently for some shooters is a valid reason, then each and every surprise stage as described earlier, where targets got moved or changed to keep it a surprise is illegal too.

Not to mention the fact that several non-surprise steady-targets stage at each match are subject to the very same problem because, due to competitors' phisical differences, a taller or shorter guy might be able to engage some targets earlier than others (consider a low port you have to approach: a shorter guy could shoot it while approaching it, or even don't approach it at all and shoot it from distant: "...the cof changes be a number of feet (meters)").

BTW, the question "if the stage is illegal why did it got approved and sanctioned for a Lev.III?" is still open...

[Vince Pinto]

BTW, the question "if the stage is illegal why did it got approved and sanctioned for a Lev.III?" is still open...

Why don't you ask the person who approved the COF?

[Skywalker]

Because he approved.

It's someone else that's stating it's illegal (thus implying it shouldn't have been approved).

[Flexmoney]

OK...

- Stages get approved all the time that aren't quite legal. Stuff getts missed or misunderstood.

- We have no control over the size and shape of the competitor, nor what equipment they choose to use to solve the shooting problem. (But, a good stage designer will consider many factors)

- We do have control over the stage we present.

In the stage diagram posted...there are actually 3 different stages possible. It not the same for everybody. I know, if presented with these three choices, I would shoot it three different ways. (judging by the diagram)

Shooting it three different ways might be fine if it were the shooters choice, but it appears to be dictated by the stage...luck of the draw.

[Jim Norman]

A properly designed surprise stage is a fun stage. We can set up a Variable N/S target utilizing a shape or attached designator. We have used a single Die with three shapes, say Circle, Square and Triangle on opposite faces. The target arrays are set up CST, TSC, TCS, SCT, CTS and CST in 6 seperate arrays. By using a shape, you eliminate color blindness and also Sight interference.

This might be called a Memory Stage, but then again you have to remember not to shoot the white targets or the targets with the big Black X on them.

Jim Norman