act after LAMR & reshoot things

[mai]

Papa Vince and all connoisseur, question questions

We finished our match last Sunday. I had tons of new experiences, almost DQ, reshoot with better score (normally I get lower score), heavy jam in these stage, very fluid in the next stage, really nice RO, extremely furious RO, condemnation about my stage design, compliment from others for the same stage, some call me cheater other call me shooter and many more. It is really memorable to me because of its all happened in just one day, up real high and down real low.

My question is “ If RO said load and make ready, Before attempt to loaded the gun, I pull my gun out of holster and run 2-3 steps close to shooting box and aim to berm”.

First question: Did I do something wrong? Mr. Ro said that I shouldn’t run like that. If I was wrong, what is the consequence I have to face? This action is normally allowed or not? (The stage-procedure is gun loaded, holstered, two-hand touch table)

Second Question: Mr. RO forgot that he already said “load and make ready” and he wants to action something (I not sure that he wants to worn me or DQ me, probably DQ). I have to save my ass so I argued with him for couple minutes. Well, finally he allow me to shoot the stage with hesitation, but I wonder that if he insisted that he didn’t say any command yet. What will happened? I get the DQ? Or any action can be done?

For the reshoot problem. If insufficient data had been recorded on the score sheet. The shooter must be only required to reshoot or the organizer may ask the RO of that stage or alibi to correct the problems. My openion, by the rule 9.7.5, the only action can be conducted is reshoot, no matter what has happened.

What does it mean by the rule 9.7.6.2? Is it like this? Say 16 rounds stage, the scorrer put 14 A 1M and 10 sec (1 round is missing), the shooter will get 6.000 HF no more or less. And if I understand it all right, do the WinMSS support this kind of input?

Any one please helps to clarify with the confusion and probably some kind of mitigation might be good.

Mai

[Skywalker]

Let's go one by one:

If RO said load and make ready, Before attempt to loaded the gun, I pull my gun out of holster and run 2-3 steps close to shooting box and aim to berm”.

First question: Did I do something wrong?

Guess rule 8.3.1.1 answers your question:

8.3.1.1 Once the "Load and Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense and may result in the application of Rule 10.6.1 for a subsequent offense in the same match.

You should have been given a warning (I assume it was the first offense).

Second Question: Mr. RO forgot that he already said “load and make ready” and he wants to action something (I not sure that he wants to worn me or DQ me, probably DQ). I have to save my ass so I argued with him for couple minutes. Well, finally he allow me to shoot the stage with hesitation, but I wonder that if he insisted that he didn’t say any command yet. What will happened? I get the DQ? Or any action can be done?

This one is not very clear to me. Care to clarify it?

For the reshoot problem. If insufficient data had been recorded on the score sheet. The shooter must be only required to reshoot or the organizer may ask the RO of that stage or alibi to correct the problems. My openion, by the rule 9.7.5, the only action can be conducted is reshoot, no matter what has happened.

Rules 9.7.5 and 9.7.4 answer your question:

9.7.5 If a score sheet is found to have insufficient or excess entries, or if the time has not been recorded on the score sheet, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire.

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

So, unless there is a simple arithmetical error, if any data is missing, the result is a reshoot.

What does it mean by the rule 9.7.6.2? Is it like this? Say 16 rounds stage, the scorrer put 14 A 1M and 10 sec (1 round is missing), the shooter will get 6.000 HF no more or less. And if I understand it all right, do the WinMSS support this kind of input?

Yes, if a reshoot is not possible, the scoresheet missing one shot is to be entered as it is.

WinMSS actually support this, but you have to check the tickbox "Disengage Confirmation" at bottom left of the scoring window, otherwise you're not allowed to enter a number of hit+misses different from the minimum number of shots for that stage.

Hope this helps.

[mai]

Thank you

OK! The series of even are like these,

1. RO said LAMR

2. I do the run (rule 8.3.1.1)

3. RO stop me and said that, he didn’t command the LAMR yet

4. We have argument about I pull the gun without his command. (I believe that he so tried because it was a long day and after noon temp also quite high. So he for got that he already command the LAMR.)

5. He allows me to shoot but he wasn’t happy. (Because, I might try to bluff to him)

5. After I finished the stage, he told me that actually I did something wrong, I must not run like that, it’s illegal to move after LAMR.

OK! The not clear question is between the 3 to 5 sequences. I wonder that:

Even 1. If he said the LARM but he really forgot and insisted that he didn’t say the word, what will happened to me?

Even 2. At that moment, If he say something but not the LARM and I think that he already give the command, I pull the gun, what will happened to me?

I hope, I clear my bad English.

Mai

[Skywalker]

Even 1. If he said the LARM but he really forgot and insisted that he didn’t say the word, what will happened to me?

According to the RO perception, you have unholstered your gun without being told to do so, thus he might want to DQ you for unsafe gun handling according to rule 10.5.1, but you could easily prove him wrong with witnesses upon summoning the RM.

Even 2. At that moment, If he say something but not the LARM and I think that he already give the command, I pull the gun, what will happened to me?

This is more tricky.

I guess this is entirely at the RO discretion. He told you something, you misunderstood him and drew your gun, thus the worst (well, not the WORST, I'll tell you why shortly... ) that could happen is under the provision of rule 10.5.1, but none of the ROs I know of will go that route immediately. They'll try to stop you, and, upon genuine explanation that due to the background noise you misunderstood his "so big boy we're ready" for "Load and Make Ready" they'll gruntigly let you shoot.

I said that 10.5.1 is not the WORST that can happen to you because a lady teammate of mines, who happens to be an IROA RO, a damn good one, a very friendly and nice company on the range, whose hands happen to weigh a bit more than what you might expect, was once misunderstood that way by a competitor.

So you have this situation: competitor on the deck facing downrange, RO coming back from scoring targets, facing competitor at no more than 3 paces away. Competitor draws his gun to start loading sequence clearly sweeping RO who, in one single quick and smooth movement stopped the competitor's gun hand with her left hand and severely slapped the competitor's face with her right one. She then had him re-holster and start again the loading sequence after LAMR command had been issued.

That competitor definitely remembers this incident up today...

[Dead Buff]

That competitor definitely remembers this incident up today...

It wasn't you and that lovely redhead you have over there???

[Skywalker]

Nope, besides the fact that Irene doesn't RO, she'd most probably have pulled her spyderco instead of slapping the poor competitor...

And would I have been slapped by Viviana (the RO), I'd have gotten two black eyes too (upon trying to explain my wife why I had been slapped by a woman... ).

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Mai,

My buddy Luca has done an excellent job responding to your queries, but allow me to expand on one aspect of your post.

If the RO did not say LAMR, but you handled your gun, you are subject to a Match DQ under Rule 10.5.1 . However if you genuinely believe that you heard the RO say LAMR, you should explain the situation to the RO, and he should use his discretion.

This exact situation occurred at the Level III in Macau last weekend. The range was totally clear and the CRO was standing right next to the competitor, but when the CRO said something to another RO, the competitor thought the CRO said LAMR, so he handled his gun, and the CRO disqualified the competitor for Unsafe Gun Handling.

However on appeal to me, and after discussion with the CRO (who, like me, believed the explanation), the competitor was reinstated, but the competitor was given a very stern warning to be more careful in future. I also recorded his competitor number in my RM logbook, because he would not be given another reprieve if he did the same thing again on another stage at that match.

Hope this helps.

[Garfield]

This kind of thing is more likely to happen at matches where a variety of languages spoken is present, like major European matches.

When I worked the Mosquito Match in Slovakia this year, this was a risk that was specifically warned for.

[pwalker]

Mai,

Sounds like you had quite a day on Sunday. Me, I just enjoyed the match (taking home that big trophy for Production division ended the day nicely).

But, I seriously doubt if anyone accused you of cheating, unless it was done in a very joking manner...

And, I do suggest that, in future, you don't do any little practice runs after the LAMR. Any out-of-the-usual actions at that time is likely to make most ROs a bit jumpy. And, our Thai ROs have very sweet dispositions, compared with others you might encounter around the world.

Regards

Peter

[Vince Pinto]

And, our Thai ROs have very sweet dispositions, compared with others you might encounter around the world.

Ouch!

[Vince Pinto]

This kind of thing is more likely to happen at matches where a variety of languages spoken is present, <snip>

Oh, you mean like when you get Australians, Americans, Canadians, Brits, South Africans and Kiwis together?

[mai]

All questions have been clear, thank you to all answer

Peter, please skip the cheater-thing, I only grumble around, may be getting old, or probably too tried from a long week of setting up the stage. Well, all of it is I still having a lot of fun and I hope that most of the shooter feels the same. If I have a chance I will say thank you to the Mr. RO, I never know that we are not supposed to move after LAMR.

Garfield, my case is, Mr. RO is Thailander and I am definitely Thai native speaking.

Mai

[Dead Buff]

This kind of thing is more likely to happen at matches where a variety of languages spoken is present, <snip>

Oh, you mean like when you get Australians, Americans, Canadians, Brits, South Africans and Kiwis together?

YES, I think its about time that the Aussies, Yanks, South Africa's secret province and Kiwis learn to speak real boerewors english...of hoe se ek man

...and don't forget the pommies....

[Vince Pinto]

Garfield, my case is, Mr. RO is Thailander and I am definitely Thai native speaking.

Are you both from Bangkok, or is one of you from Chiang Mai?

[mai]

The RO is from bangkok, I am Chiang Maian.

[Rush]

... ummmmm, you're allowed to do a practice run after the LAMR command? even if the gun is unloaded? I assume this is IPSC style so...

... here in the Phils, i think they'd DQ me automatically if i did that...

[Vince Pinto]

... ummmmm, you're allowed to do a practice run after the LAMR command? even if the gun is unloaded? I assume this is IPSC style so...... here in the Phils, i think they'd DQ me automatically if i did that...

No. Rule 8.3.1.1 applies, and this was quoted on the first page of this thread.

[Rush]

Thanks Vince... i've just never seen it done here when we're on the line... when we go to the line, everyone, that i've seen is prepped to "LAMR" and "go" at the beep... normally, what happens before drawing and loading will be to "airgun" and/or or practice a launch to the first position...

I can just imagine the RO's reaction if i did that and the ensuing debate thereafter...

You keep learning something new each day

Regards,

Rob

[DarthVader]

Hi Mai,

The story that I heard was not the same like Mr. Mai said.

It is 31 rounds stages, I am not sure about Load and make ready topic but the story that I have seen is like this

1. Someone finished this stage with 2 misses but RO make the mistake when he has signed the score sheet. The data was only 1 miss so only 30 rounds appear on the score sheet. (RO and the guy who noted the score was different person)

2. He shot this stage in the morning and in the evening he went to re-shoot without notify RO and RM what is reason for re-shoot? (RO was going to conduct this stage but don't know why this shooter has got the re-shoot. The order was made by MD. He knew it later)

3. The shooter said that he don't why he has to be re-shoot, he knew the reason after re-shooting. (Normal person should asked for the reason first, I think)

4. He also claimed that he can't remember that how many misses he made but after re-shoot he told that now he can remember that he made only 1 miss in this stage ( I am not a good shooter and can't remember how many A,C,D but I can remember how many misses that I have made for the day and in what stage), how about your guys?)

5. Other shooters in the same squad and THE RO AT THIS STAGE CONFIRM THIS SHOOTER MADE 2 MISSES. ( He still confirm that he made only 1 miss)

6. He said that even 1 or 2 misses, it isn't affect his position in the class but I think it is not a point for excute.

I think for rule 9.7.2 if RO and competitor was mutual agree on the mistake, they can correction with both initial on the correction. Since they are not share the same view, RO see 2 misses and Shooter see 1 miss so I think it will go to rule 9.7.5 but the concern was RO wasn't know the reason before re-shoot. And, please looking on No. 5

I would like to said to your guys that normally I am a reader here not the poster. But this time, I want to post for this topic since I was feel that the real story should be told. Your guys no need to believe my story since you are not in that place. It up to you. I have told you the story for another view and not the same with someone told.

[Flexmoney]

[Administrator mode on:]

We don't need to get into the particulars, and the back-and-forth, of the various versions of what happened at match. We don't need that kind of debate on the forum.

Lets stick to "what if's" and which rules might apply.

[Vince Pinto]

DarthVader??? Who is this imposter???

Jokes aside, I think you and Mai are discussing two different cases, because Mai referred to a 16 round COF, but you mention a 30 round COF. In any case, without getting into a "he said, she said" debate:

I think for rule 9.7.2 if RO and competitor was mutual agree on the mistake, they can correction with both initial on the correction. Since they are not share the same view, RO see 2 misses and Shooter see 1 miss so I think it will go to rule 9.7.5 but the concern was RO wasn't know the reason before re-shoot.

Note that Rule 9.7.2 only applies during the scoring process. If a mistake is discovered sometime after the scoresheet has been signed, then:

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

[DarthVader]

THhis is my last post for this topic.

Dear Flexmoney,

Sorry about my post. My intention was to correction on the question for this post since the situation was not like Mai told.

Dear Vince,

For the match that held in Ching Mai in Sunday 24 Oct, 2004. Only one shooter has made a re-shoot. And it was happen in Stage 10, 31 rounds. All detail, I have been described in my first post.

Again. Sorry if I was make anything inconvinice here.

[mai]

I thought, I completely understood, but I was wrong. I have problem of translation from English to Thai.

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

The meaning of the blue mark is clear. But what does it mean for the red mark?

Is its mean?

A:

The score sheet will be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. The arithmeticc correction or procedural penalties can be done only with the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision.

Or

B:

The score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. The exception is, any insufficient data may be changed, if both of competitor and signatory Range Officer have the mutual consent or an arbitration decision.

Thai version of rule14 implies something similar to the sentence B.

Another question: Is running, unholster and sight to target after LAMR against rule 8.7.3?

“Competitors who test a targeting sequence or a shooting position while taking a sight picture will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence.”

Mai

[Skywalker]

Mai,

Another question: Is running, unholster and sight to target after LAMR against rule 8.7.3?

After LAMR, you cannot move from where you are, unless the RO specifically allows you to do so. Period.

If you do so without the RO approval and supervision, rule 8.3.1.1 applies:

8.3.1.1 Once the "Load and Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Violation will result in a warning for the first offense and may result in the application of Rule 10.6.1 for a subsequent offense in the same match.

Now, rule 9.7.4 means: a signed score sheet is a definitive document, it cannot be changed. There are a few exceptions to this:

- Arithmetical errors: each and every target has the correct number of hits or misses, but the total of hits or misses is wrong. The SO is entitled to correct these arithmetical errors without the need of the competitor's signature under these corrections.

- Additional Penalties: as per rule 8.6.2, additional penalties can be added to a competitor's score sheet, even these are not the result of his actual shooting of the stage (e.g. coaching another shooter). The RO is entitled to add such penalties without the need of the competitor's signature under these penalties.

- Mutual consent: the RO and the competitor agree that something has been overlooked when signing the score sheet (e.g. shots called but not recorded, missing penalties and so on). The RO and the competitor will sign each and every correction of this kind.

Hence, B is correct answer.

[mai]

Thanks, Skywalker

I agree that first rule that may applied is 8.3.1.1 (you are the one who told me earlier at the beginning of this post). But if the shooters run, unholster and aim the gun to something, can we interpret that the competitors test a shooting position while taking a sight picture?

This is from your last post:

“ Mutual consent: the RO and the competitor agree that something has been overlooked when signing the score sheet (e.g. shots called but not recorded, missing penalties and so on). The RO and the competitor will sign each and every correction of this kind.”

And this is from your first post:

“So, unless there is a simple arithmetical error, if any data is missing, the result is a reshoot.”

And also from the last post of Vince:

QUOTE (DarthVader @ Nov 1 2004, 08:21 PM)

I think for rule 9.7.2 if RO and competitor was mutual agree on the mistake, they can correction with both initial on the correction. Since they are not share the same view, RO see 2 misses and Shooter see 1 miss so I think it will go to rule 9.7.5 but the concern was RO wasn't know the reason before re-shoot.

Note that Rule 9.7.2 only applies during the scoring process. If a mistake is discovered sometime after the scoresheet has been signed, then:

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

Oh my! I am very confusing.

My friends and I had quite a long conversation about rule 9.7, about a week ago, and we still have no conclusion. Please help us by give some examples to clarify the rule.

Mai