act after LAMR & reshoot things

[Skywalker]

Let's split things.

[Skywalker]

But if the shooters run, unholster and aim the gun to something, can we interpret that the competitors test a shooting position while taking a sight picture?

If this happens before the LAMR command, or without the RO explicitely telling you to draw your gun, the RO will DQ you because you're handling your firearm without the express consent of the RO. See rule 10.5.1.

If this happens after the LAMR, rule 8.3.1.1 applies.

Rule 8.7.3 would apply if the competitor, after LAMR and prior to loading, without moving tests a targeting sequence, i.e. draws and sweeps more than one target aiming at them (targeting sequence).

It would also apply in the following case: the stage has a starting box where you have to start kneeling and shoot a target from that position before standing and running; the competitor, upon being issued LAMR, kneels, draws and aims at a target, then stands and loads normally (shooting position).

[Skywalker]

My friends and I had quite a long conversation about rule 9.7, about a week ago, and we still have no conclusion. Please help us by give some examples to clarify the rule.

OK.

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

First Example:

(from a score sheet of a stage that has only 4 targets, total number of hits+misses shall be 8)

T1: 2A

T2: 1A 1C

T3: 2C

T4: 1C 1D

-------------------

Totals: 4A 4C 1D

This is obviously an arithmetical error, and the SO can correct it without needing the competitor signing it.

Second Example:

this one happened to me at the Med Cup last may.

I shot a long course in 36.xx seconds (I know, horrible run) and was pretty disappointed with my performance. I signed the score sheet without paying much attention to what was actually written in it (my fault).

I packed my bag and headed to the following stage after my squad was done.

Waiting my turn on the next stage I re-read the previously signed score sheet, and noticed that even if the RO had correctly called my time (I heard him), the scorekeeper actually wrote 26.xx seconds (that would have brought me among top 3 of that stage). I went back to the RO and told him about the mistake: he remembered my run and having called 36.xx as correct time, thus we agreed to change the score sheet and signed the correction.

Third Example:

A competitor is finishing a long course, and he has totally forgot one target, not shooting at it. The RO orders "If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear", when a buddy of his (who has already shot that stage), in background, yells "you forgot a target after reloading". Upon finishing with the actual competitor, the RO writes a procedural penalty on the score sheet of the "coach", according to rule 8.6.2., without the need of the "coach" signing the correction.

Hope this helps.

[Vince Pinto]

And also from the last post of Vince:

QUOTE (DarthVader @ Nov 1 2004, 08:21 PM) SNIP

Mai, That was not my post. I use Darth Vader as my avatar, but somebody else (from Thailand!!!) uses "Darth Vader" as his login ID.

Anyway, as I understand you will be in Bali this month, I suggest you attend my Rules Workshop on Friday 26 November - details here. However if you cannot attend, it will be easy to find me at the range or at the hotel, when I will be delighted to answer all your questions face-to-face.

[mai]

Thank you so much Skywalker

Probably more than 80% of my confusion have been cleared. For the 20% left over, it might be easier to talk to Vince during Bali-match, because it might be too much detail and lead to a very long boring post.

For your second example: things may not be that easy, if you shot 26.xx and the written was 36.xx. Or quite a long time past by, let’s says, shoot in the morning and we find errors by the end of the day.

And from this example, you are a very good sport man, how many shooters will go back and ask for lower score? What will I do if the same situation had happened to me? I might go back like you, or I just keep quiet and feel guilty for the rest of the day. Or worst, I keep my mount shut and be a happy one. How about you guys, what will you do?

For the 3rd example, the one who get penalty is the one who yells "you forgot a target after reloading", right?

If the one who yell is not a shooter, just a visitor, what will happen? 1.If the shooter respond to signal and move back to shoot the forgotten target. 2. If the shooter doesn’t move back to shoot.

Vince, too bad, I have no chance to attend your Workshop, I will arrive Bali on Saturday, late afternoon. Anyway, for sure, I will looking for you later on.

Mai

[Vince Pinto]

For the 3rd example, the one who get penalty is the one who yells "you forgot a target after reloading", right? If the one who yell is not a shooter, just a visitor, what will happen?

10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation of a course of fire and/or a competitor's attempt thereof, and any other behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

[Skywalker]

For the 20% left over, it might be easier to talk to Vince during Bali-match, because it might be too much detail and lead to a very long boring post.

Yes, I guess for more detailed questions or other general rules stuff you'd better hook up with Vince in Bali.

For your second example: things may not be that easy, if you shot 26.xx and the written was 36.xx.

In this case, I'm sorry to say this, but if you signed the scoresheet and the RO doesn't recall your run and agrees to change the final document, there is not much you can do other than filing an arbitration (but I guess your chances of winning it are very few). There is an informative post from forum member Julien Boit in these forums, right here.

For the 3rd example, the one who get penalty is the one who yells "you forgot a target after reloading", right?

If the one who yell is not a shooter, just a visitor, what will happen? 1.If the shooter respond to signal and move back to shoot the forgotten target. 2. If the shooter doesn’t move back to shoot.

1. The shooter might (likely) be given a procedural penalty according to rule 8.6.2

8.6.2 Any person providing assistance or interference to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.

2. The shooter won't get any penalty (he took no advantage from the coaching, since he didn't respond to it), while the "coach" will if he is a competitor registered to that match. The case of the coach being a visitor has already been covered by Mr. Pinto.

[mai]

Big Thanks to both of you

see you in Bali, Vince

mai