Vince Pinto Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Another situation that arises is: A shooter has been DQ'd at a particular club on multiple occasions. The same shooter has also been DQ'd at other clubs in the immediate area. What courses of action can we take and what rules can we cite? At the moment, nothing and none under the rules, however the possibility of having a Regional and/or International "DQ Register" has been previously discussed, but no action was taken. However if we did go that route, we wouldn't be the first sporting organisation to do so. Consider football (soccer), where "Red Cards" are recorded and where a competitor may get suspended for a period of time, and it wouldn't be too difficult for us to establish a Regional and/or International "DQ database". Of course the entire issue would still be highly controversial but I, for one, certainly think that there's merit in considering such a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I thought about that, but would the results be enforcable...just a 6 months (or whatever) suspension from level III or higher or all matches...my name might never feature in the IPSC hall of fame, so how will country x or club y know I've been suspended locally due to DQ's...no, not all upload scores to the HQ (IPSC or USPSA) I like the idea since it would make the sport even more safe and force training onto everybody - new and old, but the system still needs thought and paying for a DQ list (through the uploading fees) will kill it in my books on any level higher than local club... IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I for one do not realy want a registry. Just think how that could be used against us. It would be legal document that should anything happen would get dragged into court. I realy do think that we need the latitude to "ride herd" on those that are known to us, but I wouldn't go further. Most of the really bad shooters will not be traveling all over the country or the world to shoot. They show up at a few local clubs where we know them. Better they do their shooting where we might be able to educate them than to go it alone and think that they are above the rules of safety. As ti a registry, there are also some serious logistical problems as well as security. * areas report to USPSA and the results are uploaded once a month. in our area within a few hours you can shoot nearly every weekend day and a few weeknights. If your name was enterd into such a DB, you'd maybe not show up till after you shot 7 more matches. Your supension could be over before it was recorded. To make it work we'd need instant updates and access to the DB by all the stats people or MDs in the organization. My vote is no registry, just the ability to handle the situation locally within the framework of the rules. As I said, even if we tel a shooter, "You may no longer, ever shoot with us" there is no way we can stop him from showing up during open range time and shooting, better we are there to watch him. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Most of the really bad shooters will not be traveling all over the country or the world to shoot. They show up at a few local clubs where we know them. Not really true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hi guys, As I said earlier, the subject is highly controversial, and I also have mixed feelings about having a registry. On one hand, I see merit in at least having a Regional registry, because just knowing that match DQs are being recorded should hopefully serve as a further deterrent to prevent repeated unsafe behaviour. On the other hand, the loss of match fees and time is in itself a pretty good deterrent, as would be a ban imposed by an individual club. If people are worried about the legal ramifications of maintaining a registry, consider the alternative - how would Club X defend itself in Court if it banned Joe Blogs from shooting at it's premises for repeated unsafe actions, but it failed to warn other clubs which are members of the same Regional organisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 In the UK the RM reports any DQs to our NROI as part of his post match report and as I stated earlier we take action after 2 DQs in 12 months. Setting the debate of whether to do it or not aside for a moment it should be feasible for WinMSS and EZWin to auto generate a report any DQs as a separate item for auto forwarding to an email address to suit, e.g, the Regional NROI. It is then perfectly possible to maintain and report on the data to set criteria. It could be a feature that is turned on from Region to Region to suit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hi guys,As I said earlier, the subject is highly controversial, and I also have mixed feelings about having a registry. On one hand, I see merit in at least having a Regional registry, because just knowing that match DQs are being recorded should hopefully serve as a further deterrent to prevent repeated unsafe behaviour. On the other hand, the loss of match fees and time is in itself a pretty good deterrent, as would be a ban imposed by an individual club. If people are worried about the legal ramifications of maintaining a registry, consider the alternative - how would Club X defend itself in Court if it banned Joe Blogs from shooting at it's premises for repeated unsafe actions, but it failed to warn other clubs which are members of the same Regional organisation? I think the term Damned if you do and damned if you don't probably applies here. That having been said, the problem with the registry is that it could be used BEFORE the fact as evidence of an unsafe activity to get some organizations closed down. "My GOD!, These people are so dangerous that they have a NATIONAL registry of the times they screw up! We can't have this in our (insert town, club, state, country)" I think that we need to continue to quielty police our ranks. The other thing is, since at least here you don't lose your shooting rights just because you DQ, you are still running around at a range, including any pit that is not under control of the match that you just DQ'd from, with you r gun. We should work with these individuals so that their shooting is done under supervision and we perhaps DQ them BEFORE they hurt someone rather than let them continue unsupervised the nexct day. In other words, maybe some of our safety will rub off on them. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 How many repeat DQ offenders are out there? I have not seen any. I have seen a few DQs at local matches, and possibly as much as 1% at larger matches, but I just havent' seen chronic poor gun handling anywhere in USPSA. When it has happened, I've always seen the RO take the shooter aside and explain what went wrong. I've seen shooters upset about it, but I've always seen them get over it, too. I just don't see that a database/registry would really make anything "safer", as our system is already safe. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Rules and registries aside, is there a rule that says a shooter must be accepted at a match, or that the MD can not just say "You can not shoot here"? It seems to me that safety aside (a BIG aside) there might be a long list of reasons for which a club may not wish a shooter to come back. Maybe the shooter is rude and loud, maybe he hits on the opposite sex without stop, maybe he just pees against the berm as opposed to using the facilities, whatever. Is there a rule that says a shooter that shows up at a match MUST be allowed to shoot? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Maybe the shooter is rude and loud, maybe he hits on the opposite sex without stop, maybe he just pees against the berm as opposed to using the facilities, whatever. No wonder I shoot alone so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Maybe the shooter is rude and loud, maybe he hits on the opposite sex without stop, maybe he just pees against the berm as opposed to using the facilities, whatever. No wonder I shoot alone so much. Which one(s) apply? I only reckon on one of them and I'm not really sure that makes me a bad person? Not really anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 How many repeat DQ offenders are out there? I have not seen any. How many times have you DQ'ed???? If you say never you should be saying NOT YET. It happens to every shooter in our sport. Whether it was when you are new or have been shooting a long time, it happens. Who's to say it can't happen twice in a short time. Does that make them a bad or unsafe shooter, NO. I have seen people that have shot our sport for a long time DQ. I have DQ'ed 3 time. It doesn't matter when or for what it is still a DQ. It happens to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Tri Burst sums up my feelings as well. DQ's are not an indicator of how safe/unsafe a shooter is. Yes, it can serve as indication when you get your 10th DQ in as many matches, but DQ stats alone should not, IMHO, form the basis for suspension/re-training/whatever. By all means add DQ stats to the normal records we keep as proof of how safe the sport is, but do not try to read anything from the information that can not be read from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 .... maybe he just pees against the berm as opposed to using the facilities ...... This is why I want to ban all types of cameras at IPSC matches - I just returned from serving as RM for the 1st Level III in Macau, and the buggers caught me good and proper. It's bad enough when competitors don't understand that sometimes the RM is so busy, he doesn't even have time to walk back to the shed to spend a penny, but when they yell out comments such as "I thought 9mm was the minimum calibre in IPSC?" and "There's no way he's gonna make Major with that thing", it really hurts my feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Solution A: Have a "reputable" 'smith rebarrel your ... ehr ... uhm ... gun (?) in "major caliber" (or click on one of those "...enlargement..." banners that show up every time you do a search on almost everything on the net... ). Solution B: answer all those annoying questions like "...who are you going to entertain with that..." with a simple "ME!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Vince, is that what you're always referring to as mini me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Vince, is that what you're always referring to as mini me? Naahhhh. Myro Lopez from the Philippines is "Mini Me". You can see the close resemblance here in a photo taken at the Chief PNP Cup at Clark in 2003. Most people who know us think we were separated at birth, much like in the movie "Twins". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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