Vince Pinto Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 If the Productin Gun Company, Inc uses the VP Coating company to provide the finish on their gun and the VP coating company provides that exact same finish to the general publinc with a 1 week turnaround for $150.0 whild the PD Gun company marks up the refinish to $250 and takes two months to retun my gun, can I just have the VP finishing company refinish my gun with the factory finish? This is the second time you've asked me this particular hypothetical question. You give me a real example (i.e. identify the Production Division OFM and identify their outside contractor), and I'll respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 This is clearly drifting off the original topic and for that I appologize. Vince pointed out one of the real problems with the rules. It seems that the system is setup to reward gun makers for selling the magic combination of features regardless if such a firearm makes any sense for any other application. Leaving aside the opaque (to me) logic by which the G34 (sold as a tactical model in the US) is deemed unsuited while the SP-01 (I'll bet a box of ammo that S stands for Sport) is consider suitable before it is even commercially real, the system is bound to give rise to the $2000 IPSC production race gun. It encourages an equipment race at the maker level and forces competitors to shoot with a (perceived or real) inferior gun or choose from a small list of expensive custom made factory guns which is what they will be with no real production numbers limit, we shouldn't fool ourselves. Basically as long as the gun is double action (which means something different in the days after the Glock then it used to mean to grandpa) and it is made by some manufacturer it is ok. This places the entire division in the hands of the manufacturers and removes any reasonable level of control from the shooters. I do have to ask what defines a manufacturer. Can a custom gunsmithing shop decide to build from scratch the perfect gun and only build them one at a time as ordered? I can see a small company start building a $2000 production model, modular and with every option known to man as OFM options which they will combine to your wishes. Assuming that gun meets all the specs of a production gun we will end up with an equipment race anyway unless IPSC decided based on some unknown method that Gun X shouldn't be put on the list and doing that just because the rules are lacking seems somewhat unfair. When it comes to the issue of finishes, it seems that we are again handing a check to the makers. If my gun is blued who cares who reblues it? Is it not an equipment race to require shooters to pay a lot more for the same service? Most manufacturers charge A LOT more for their services. Further if the justification is that a certain finish is not a "production" finish and hence not allowed, then is my rusted gun a production finish? After all they don't sell a rust finish. What if I scratch my finish? They don't sell scratched guns either, or at least they shouldn't. If the finish wear out twice a year and it costs $300 how is that not an equipment race? What if the company is only an importer and can not reproduce the finish localy? I can't send my gun to a different country to have it refinished so my choice is to just buy a new one. How is that not an equipment race? Regardless what the original purpose of the division was, the world evolves and it would be dangerous to continue changing rules around to reenforce some original misconseption as opposed to seeing what the shooters want. Lets face it, IPSC shooters are gun enthusiasts, one and all. They like to tinker and poke at their gear. The DA issue was a real one and now DA guns have a home (some of them anyway) but that doesn't mean that people don't want to still tinker with them. You list some numbers from international matches. Leaving aside weather they are meaningfull (the expense of attending such matches is such that a certain financial status or sponsorship is requiered for most), the numbers for production had nowhere to go but up. It is a new division with guns that couldn't be used anywhere else, so growth was inevitable. The cracks in the wall are however obvious with things such as the G34 and the SP-01 or the similar EAA models. If the shooters were so happy with the guns they could have under the rules why are they buying the new models which cost more and are designed specifically for IPSC? You have moved the race from the control of the shooters and you handed it to the manufacturers and that is much worse, in my opinion. I can spend a pile of cash to get a gun with a trigger job done by a factory gunsmith on a different continent but I can not spend a smaller pile of cash to have it done by a local gunsmith. I think it is bad policy and it is a bad bussiness practice in the long run. Clearly, I'm also not alone. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 This places the entire division in the hands of the manufacturers and removes any reasonable level of control from the shooters. I disagree, because the decision whether or not a gun is approved remains exclusively with IPSC. This gives us the opportunity to withhold approval of a gun which IPSC feels has gone beyond the spirit of the division, and it also allows us to reject guns made by a manufacturer who is exclusively a custom gun maker. What you seem to be suggesting is that IPSC should adopt "Standard Division type" rules, whereby we list the basic criteria, and then competitors can do whatever they like to their guns provided they meet the criteria, but we have four other divisions where such rules apply. We took an entirely different approach to Production Division, and it's working just fine, despite the concerns of the 3 Amigos from OB/Cats You mention the G34 which is not approved for IPSC Production Division. When IPSC drew the line in the sand at 5", it was intentionally to prevent PD becoming a G34 division and, as it turns out, no single OFM dominates IPSC PD. In any case, the USPSA also drew a line in the sand by utilising the IPSC box, which means the G17L & G24 don't qualify. Six of one, half a dozen of the other! Anyway, I think we must agree to disagree, but I appreciate your constructive criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Anyway, I think we must agree to disagree Clearly. We are sitting on different edges of this ravine and only time will tell who was right. However I would like your opinion on my questions regarding finishes. Is rust a factory finish? Can I strip of a factory finish and use the gun in the white? What if it just wears out? Neither are factory finishes, and what is teh difference between a gun with worn out finish and a striped one? Also I am curious what defines a manufacturer and will happen when someone starts building the STI Edge of Production. Hmm .. If I get a manufacturing license and make my own gun from bar stock and offer it on a website for an absurd amount of money , can I get it on the list? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Is rust a factory finish? Can I strip of a factory finish and use the gun in the white? What if it just wears out? Neither are factory finishes, and what is teh difference between a gun with worn out finish and a striped one? I think you already know that rust is not a factory finish. No, you cannot strip the factory finish because that exceeds the parameters of "minor detailing", but of course normal wear & tear is expected and visibly different from wholesale stripping. It's interesting that you mention "a striped one", because one of the issues which kept arising earlier this year were some people asking if they could paint a stripe along the length of the top of the slide to assist them in sighting. The answer was no, for the same reason, namely that it was beyond the parameters of minor detailing and it also changed the configuration of the gun. Another guy wanted to refinish his gun (in a product which I cannot recall), which would make his slide "sticky" on the outside, thereby making it easy to rack his slide by gripping it anywhere. The answer was also no, because once you allow non-OFM finishes, this potentially opens a Pandora's box of tricks, and then we'd have to start making a very detailed list of "yea and nay" items, and we don't want to go there. Other people wanted to stipple their grips, and they argued that it did not give them an advantage over another guy adding skateboard tape, but again the answer was no. You see, once you allow stippling, then the next argument is "why can't I shave the rear of my grip to suit my small hands", and "why can't I enlarge the semi-circular notch at the bottom of my Glock grip so that I can expel magazines faster" and "why can't I cut grooves in the front of my slide so that I can rack it from the front" and the list goes on and on and on. Bottom line: You cannot modify any part of your gun, except for approved items (as listed). Also I am curious what defines a manufacturer and will happen when someone starts building the STI Edge of Production. Hmm .. If I get a manufacturing license and make my own gun from bar stock and offer it on a website for an absurd amount of money , can I get it on the list? I asked my old mate Dave Skinner about creating an STI PD gun about two years ago, but his answer (with a huge grin on his face), involved sex & travel. However if you want to start The Vlad Gun Company, knock yourself out, but your products won't make the approved gun list unless IPSC is convinced that your guns are available to the general public internationally, and that you're more than a custom shop. If you look at the approved gun list, you'll note that some pretty obscure guns are listed, however all the manufacturers are of some substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I think you already know that rust is not a factory finish. Thats what I thought. Then if my gun rusts up, do I have to have it refinished do be production legal? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Thats what I thought. Then if my gun rusts up, do I have to have it refinished do be production legal? No Sir. However I'm curious about which PD gun could rust so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 My CZ does wherever the finish is worn. My sweat is murder on exposed steel. I can get my AUS-8 stainless steel pocket knife to rust by just touching it with a dry hand and I get nice fingerprint shaped marks on the blade. The underside of the dust cover of my CZ is getting a bit bare and the magwell has been exposed steel for a while from all the reloads and rust seems to love it. Not that I really care, I just keep it oiled and live with it. If I could I would chrome, but just to use the same finish which would chip of again sounds kinda silly and the other CZ finishes are not any better then the polymer which is what mine was covered with. I wonder though .. could I even have CZ refinish it with their nickle finish which they offer on my model even if the original finish was polymer, would that be legal? Edited to add: So if rust is not a factory finish, and I don't have to refinish a rusted gun, doesn't that mean that I would have a non-factory finish? Seriously, If my gun was blued by now it would have been oiled and bare after I got all the rust stains off. You have to see the grip of my Ruger MkII. The thing is shinny bare metal from using oiled steel wool to get the rust off. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Vlad, I sympathise. One of my best friends has the sweaty hands thing, and it's no fun at all, especially at our regular poker game, when he becomes a big client of Johnson's Baby Powder and the rest of us develop white eyebrows! Anyway, sure, if CZ offer your particular model in a choice of finishes, it's not a problem to use one or the other, provided it's done by CZ. You should call them on 1-800-955-4486 to ask prices and times. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSA 86-259 Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 In fact, I predict that at WSXIV next year in Ecuador, we'll see the PD field hit the 30% mark. The number will be higher if the ammunition still will be a hot item on the WSXIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Vince: Great answers to questions in this topic. I don't see why so many are confused with IPSC Production division. It's designed for factory production pistols only, period. If one wants to modify their pistol, that's what the other divisions are for. The fact that IPSC is preventing the division from becoming something else is admirable. As you stated, it's the fastest growing division so the concept is working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Vlad, You've made some, what I think are, valid points. I'd bet a box of ammo that your predictions made on Nov 21 2004, 06:38 PM bear fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Thanks for the kind words. The other thing I should mention is that nobody is stopping anyone from performing major modifications on their Glock 17 provided they want to shoot in Open, Standard or Modified Divisions. In fact, I'd buy front row seat tickets to see Dave Sevigny use a highly modified Glock in one of those (or Limited) divisions. I haven't heard much recently about Armando Valdes who used to shoot a tuned Glock in Limited (?) Division in the USA, but he could hold his own against the "Old Dawgs" using SAO pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 I'd bet a box of ammo that your predictions made on Nov 21 2004, 06:38 PM bear fruit. Do you mean Vlad's price predictions? If so, let's see if we can obtain some current pricing information - I'll start a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Vince you wrote However if you want to start The Vlad Gun Company, knock yourself out, but your products won't make the approved gun list unless IPSC is convinced that your guns are available to the general public internationally, and that you're more than a custom shop Please tell me where I can obtain a CZ SP-01. As far as I can tell this gun only exists as a picture and a custom gun for Angus. I'm sure that it will be eventually available but as far as I can tell CZUB and CZ-USA make no mention of this gun existing. How did they convince IPSC that it exists? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Vlad, I just sent off an email to the CZ factory asking them to provide more information about the availability of the gun, hopefully in Europe and the USA, and I'll revert as soon as possible. I'll also corner Angus in Bali over the weekend. In the meantime, I don't know if it's any use to you, but this website (in Czech?), seems to be pretty excited about it. As a general comment, not directed to any particular manufacturer, if we discover that a particular make and model gun we've approved in good faith is available exclusively to members of their shooting team, that particular gun will be withdrawn from the approved gun list in a New York minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Thank you for looking into it. While I'm sure that eventually the gun will actually exists, right now it seems to exactly and exemple of the problem I was describing. In a different forum Angus mentioned that a run of 100 was made or in some state of production. However given that as far as I can tell the companies don't admit it exists one has wonder if it should be on the list and it exemplifies the problem of the factory custom BTW, I hope you also asked them what the expected retail price was going to be. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 23, 2004 Share Posted November 23, 2004 Vlad, The preliminary advice I've received is that the first 500 CZ SP-01 pistols will be arriving in the USA in December, and 350 of them have been pre-sold (price not stated), but I'll revert with more information once I've had a chance to have a chat with the representative of CZ who will be in Bali with me next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now